En Gedi: Finding rest in the wilderness!

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Altar Calls by John MacArthur!

Posted by Scott on March 25, 2008

DadsDevoted!

ALTAR CALLS

Copyright 1992
by
John F. MacArthur, Jr.
All rights reserved.

I noted for you earlier, in 1 Corinthians, chapter 2, Paul shunned manipulative oratory. He didn’t do like many preachers do today. He wasn’t into manipulating his crowd, he says in chapter 2, verse 1, of 1 Corinthians, “I didn’t come with superiority of speech” (that’s oratorical ability), I didn’t come to bowl you over with my oration, I didn’t come with “wisdom.”

He says, verse 4, “My message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom” (I didn’t use technique; I didn’t use manipulation). I didn’t want your faith to “rest on the wisdom of men” (literally, the wisdom of their information or their approach). He said, I came to you with God’s wisdom; I came to you in God’s power; I came to “you in weakness in fear and in trembling.”

He didn’t use techniques that excite and stir, and move people’s emotions to achieve results. He preached the Scriptures (listen to this) to the mind! Many preachers today (and I suppose through history) are good at the art of persuasion–they know how to move people to respond without the Scripture being the issue. They can manipulate them emotionally, and frankly, that kind of stuff really prostitutes the preacher’s stewardship, because it makes him no different then a secular persuader. Now, I want to talk about this for a moment because it is an issue.

A number of years ago, a man named Duane Lifton (sp.) who is now pastoring back in Tennessee, wrote a very interesting article called “The Perils of Persuasive Preaching.” There are a number of things in that article that are worth understanding. I share them with you because I want you to be alert to what some people endeavor to do, and what you can see them endeavoring to do with crowds of people. They claim to be preachers, and in fact are not preaching the Word of God, but are manipulating the people.

In this particular book, that Lifton and his article quotes, called “Hypnotism–Fact and Fiction,” Frederick Marcuse (sp.) reports a research study conducted at a large eastern university,

The researchers attempted, through hypnotic suggestion, to induce a convinced and vocal atheist to become religious. The attempt was so successful that it had to be halted and all suggestion removed from the subject’s mind. When his entire attitude towards religious faith changed, after only three sessions, and for the first time in his life he began to attend church, the investigators decided that the ethics of the situation prevented them from pursuing their research any further.

They could literally make atheists religious by manipulating their minds. While the example is admittedly a dramatic one, it serves to raise a monstrous question, “Would it be possible through hypnotic suggestion to create a believer–quite apart from any work of the Holy Spirit? And would such a person really be a child of God?” Such questions, he writes, “are not simply academic.”

Psychologist, James McConnell has said, The time has come, when if you give me any normal human being and a couple of weeks, I can change his behavior from what it is now to whatever you want it to be–if it is physically possible.

I can’t make him fly by flapping his wings, but I can turn him from a Christian into a Communist and vice versa.

Although, researchers have shown that audiences are not nearly so malleable as once thought, nevertheless, skilled persuaders, including some who stand in the pulpit are often able to exert a tremendous influence on other human beings. And they do not have to resort to such dramatic methods as hypnotism. Consider for example, the words of the well known social scientist, Milton Rochiche (sp.),

Suppose you could take a group of people, give them a twenty minute pencil and paper task, talk to them for ten to twenty minutes afterward, and thereby produce long-range changes in core values and personal behavior in a significant portion of this group. Suppose further, you could ascertain quickly, and that you could predict accurately the nature and direction of these changes. My colleagues and I, have in the last five years, achieved the kind of results suggested above. As a result, we must now face up to the ethical implications that follow from the fact that it now seems to be within man’s power to alter, experimentally, another person’s basic values and to control the direction of the change.

That is from “Psychology Today” magazine. If you have any questions if that is true, just remember what I have told you in the past about how many psychologists are creating false memories and restructuring a person’s entire life with fantasy, and causing those people, by manipulating their thinking, to believe that it is the real story of their life.

Preachers who are gifted communicators, and who are articulate, and who use the emotional techniques, and the sad stories, and the tear jerking approaches, and who get the mood music playing behind the scene, and can create the kind of manipulative environment, can effect in people behavior changes and even alter their basic values–and never need to use the Word of God. But what is the result? What is the ultimate result? Is it true regeneration? Of course not! The only legitimate tool is the Scripture. The only legitimate bridge to change–is the mind. Lifton also says in this article, In an excellent article on attitude change, in the “Handbook of Social Psychology, Volume 3” psychologist William McGuire suggests that human attitude change may be broken down into at least five steps of levels (this is interesting). This is the process people go through when they change attitudes: ATTENTION, COMPREHENSION, YIELDING, RETENTION, and ACTION.

In other words, they move across that kind of spectrum. They go from attention (something gets their attention) to comprehension, to yielding, to retention and action. And he writes, “The hearers must go through each of these steps if communication is to have ultimate persuasive impact, and each depends on the occurrence on the preceding steps.” The traditional approach to homiletics seems to suggest that the goal of preaching is the third step–YIELDING.

Probably, you have experienced that, there was attention–the preacher got your attention. Then their was certain amount of comprehension, and then they started talking about you need to surrender, you need to yield. They started to play the organ, the mood music began. Maybe you have been in a meeting where they “played and they played” and they kept telling people to raise their hands, “come down the aisle,” and they tried to force or manipulate the YIELDING, and not with clarifying truth, but with sounds and sights. They will even tell you, “We have all of these people that we start down the aisles, just to prime the pump, because it gets a flow going and people get caught in the flow.” That is sheer manipulation!

I am not saying that people can’t be converted in a situation like that, but I am saying that people who aren’t being converted get swept up in it. The people who are converted, are converted because they comprehend the truth, and because the Spirit of God effects the transformation.

Now, Lifton says, “I suggest that the preachers goal should not be viewed as the YIELDING step at all, but the previous step–COMPREHENSION.” I want to let you know that I agree with that absolutely. I think it is the preacher’s responsibility to get ATTENTION and COMPREHENSION. It is the Holy Spirit’s responsibility to produce YIELDING, RETENTION, and ACTION–that’s not my job.

It is not my task to manipulate you to do something emotionally. All the slick techniques, all the gospel marketing packages, all the pulpit histrionics of jumping and stomping and flailing around and beating the organ, and doing whatever they do to create the mood. All the sad stories, the mood music, the endless invitations, the hand raising, the walking, all of that kind of pressure is not preaching the Word. It has nothing to do with COMPREHENSION.

The decision of yielding, surrendering and then retaining and acting, is between the hearer and God, and not the hearer and the preacher. It is the Holy Spirit’s work.

Preaching is proclaiming saving truth, sanctifying truth, and strengthening truth from Scripture, the rest is up to the Holy Spirit. So Paul says, I was entrusted with the proclamation. That’s all that I can do. All I can do is to get their ATTENTION and bring COMPREHENSION. The message is the Scripture, and since the message is the Scripture, beloved, it should be patently obvious to everyone that the proper kind of preaching should be “expository preaching.” That is the only legitimate way to be true to the divine message.

You know as well as I know that I could manipulate people with stories. I mean, you could tell a tear jerking story and effect emotional trauma on people. You can move people with things other than the Scriptures, but you are working on their feelings and not on their mind. The message is Scripture, and if the message is Scripture and the preacher is to preach the message he has to preach the Scripture, and preaching the Scripture means you must exposit the Word.

It is strange to me but the Master’s Seminary stands in some ways unique, with just a few other seminaries across this country that are interested in teaching people how to do expository preaching. How hard is it to figure out that we should be doing that?

By the way, I was happy when Dick Mayhue (the Dean of our Seminary) told me that the book that our faculty wrote on expository preaching was given the award “Book of the Year” by the “Preaching Journal” which is the professional journal of preaching. They named it “Book of the Year.” Also, the EPA, the Evangelical Press Association has nominated it for the “Gold Medallion Award” and it has been nominated even in “Christianity Today” for the “Book of the Year in its Field.” Obviously, that book is having an impact because there is such a deadness out there in the terms of understanding the importance of expository preaching.

The preacher’s job is not to force his people, by some manipulative process, to YIELD. His job is to make them comprehend the Word of God, which will save them, sanctify them, and strengthen them.

What does it mean when we say “expository preaching?” To “exposit” simply means to “explain the meaning.” It means to preach the Bible in such a way, that the meaning of the Bible passage is presented entirely and exactly as it was intended by God. That’s the challenge–the divine Word coming through the preacher.

Walt Kaiser (sp.) wrote in his wonderful book “Towards Exegetical Theology,” It is no secret that Christ’s Church is not at all in good health in many places of the world. She has been languishing because she has been fed, as the current line has it–“Junk Food.” All kinds of artificial preservatives, and all sorts of unnatural substitutes have been served up to her. As a result, theological and biblical malnutrition has afflicted the very generation that has taken such giant steps to make sure its physical health is not damaged by using food or products that are carcinogenic or otherwise harmful to their physical bodies. Simultaneously, a world wide spiritual famine resulting from the absence from any genuine publication of the Word of God continues to run wild and almost unabated in quarters in the Church.

We have got to get back to preaching the Word of God. What a calling. What a calling. That’s our calling. That’s what God has commanded us to do. Just so you cannot get off the hook by saying, “Well, I am glad that you were talking to yourself–I’m not a preacher!” Listen to Mark 16:15, “He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.'” You may not have a pulpit like I do, but you have a mandate from God, don’t you? To preach the truth, to proclaim it wherever you can.

Father, thank you for our time in your Word this morning and the reminder of the priority of the means of preaching. God raise up many preachers, right out of this congregation. What a task, what a duty, what a privilege, what an amazing calling, to stand in the line of the Prophets, and Christ Himself, and the Apostles, and the preachers of the past who proclaimed the Word.

Oh God, I pray that you will raise up many preachers. We thank you for those men in our seminary who are learning now to preach your Word, who will bring the message that saves, and sanctifies, and strengthens. The message that justifies and sanctifies and gives hope for glorification, who will faithfully open the Book and teach it. God raise them up and make them powerful as was Paul. May all of us reach the potential, wherever it is where we can preach truth, to whatever small congregation, from whatever small pulpit, even a “one-on-one” make us faithful to be proclaiming your truth. We pray in Your Son’s Name. Amen.

DadsDevoted!

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57 Responses to “Altar Calls by John MacArthur!”

  1. Maz said

    Hi Brother! I have heard John MacArthur talk on one of the Christian channels about the state of the Church today and how we need to get back to the peaching of the Word of God. He speaks of pragmatism and about ‘user friendly’ churches. They want to make people feel good about themselves, they don’t want to offend, don’t want to upset them by mentioning sin or hell or judgment!
    I’m an evangelist, and I use tracts which tell the godpel message….no frills or thrills, just plain GOSPEL.
    It has shocked me recently how many Big Names in the Christian world are going off what Paul preached, in fact they are making up their own gospel to win people to their Church.
    I have had to make a stand for Truth, and I will continue to stand on that Truth and preach it. Go forward Scott, and be encouraged. God is with us!
    God bless you!

    I appreciate that, Sister. I have been attacked over and over from skeptics, emergent church members, athiest, LDS members, and more. It is tough telling the truth, not easy for people to hear…it certainly not for the weak at heart to deliver the message either. Stay the course and the end for us is an eternity in heaven with our Father and Lord Jesus Christ. What a wonderous day that will be. Pressing on in Christ, Scott

  2. Maz said

    Scott: You may have already seen the other post where I said I was your sister in Christ, but just so others know.
    Yes, it is tough, but when you know God is with you, there is a holy boldness that comes with standing for the Truth. Believe me, before I knew the Lord, I was shy. It took me a while to even give out tracts when I did come to Christ, let alone talk to people. Now I have the fire of God in me. He gives me the strength by His Holy Spirit to speak what needs to be spoken.
    In Christ, Maz.

    Thanks Maz, I appreciate the continuing encouragement and that goes right back to you from me. It is a boldness from God that causes us to really not feel those flaming arrows bouncing off of us on a daily basis. Oh well, Christ did not say taking up the cross would be a cake walk nor did He tell us that speaking His truth would be accepted by everyone that heard it either. In Christ, Scott

  3. Maz said

    Just a note to say that it is difficult to listen to some of your videos because someone is singing over them.

    You can turn the Sonic music off by clicking one of those buttons. I probably need to leave instructions over it. thanks. Scott

  4. Maz said

    Just noticed the note you put at the top of your page!
    Thanks.
    Read something about Calvinism. Would like to leave a comment about it, but can’t find a place to leave one. No doubt I shall find it if I looked properly!

    Where did you see it at and I can probably direct you right to it. Scott

  5. Maz said

    Right under the list of bloggers, you have CALVINISM POST and further down you have CALVINISM. I want to say here Scott, that it is not something I believe in or believe the Bible teaches. But direct me to the place and I will talk further there. Thanks.

    Maz, this will take a long time to get into concerning the Calvinistic view point…easier to refute Mormonism than get into this. I am a very strong believer in the scriptures and it supports this view point all too well. However, there is not enough space here to get into it thoroughly. I am not a calvinist…I am a believer in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I believe in a Sovereign, All Knowing, All Powerful God that controls each and every event in this universe and beyond…He has a predetermined plan for each of us as His chosen people. If my God is not that big then why bother. I have studied both sides thoroughly….I see the points made on the other side of this…however, man cannot and does not have anything within his own power to do with his salvation…if man does, then God becomes less God and I will not ever believe that. What I have studied of Calvinism for the most part I do agree with, but I never go around calling myself a “Calvinist”. This doctrine goes back to the beginning…it did not start with John Calvin. The five points did not come out until after John’s death and it was to refute the five points of Armenianism at the Synod of Dort, which I absolutely will not agree with the Armenian view..puts too much of the focus on man rather than God. Martin Luther and Augustine who predate John Caovin are amoung the earliest none teachers of this doctrine outside the apostles. I would say that Paul wrote this doctrine out very well in Romans. Again, we do not have the time to put into this I can guarantee you this.

    The only point in the 5 points of Calvinism that I do not completely adhere to is that Christ died only for the elect…this I do not agree with as it is stated. Christ died for all man kind. However, only the elect will respond to the gospel…not all people. Cannot get into the scriptural references here as time is limited, but I will put together a special post just for you later if the Lord allows…this has not been my focus for sometime now and I am not sure it needs to be at this moment. Christ had to die for all in order for justice to be served….no one can die saying they never had a chance or that Christ did not die for them….God is a “just” God and on the cross that justice was served, however, not everyone will accept Christ nor can they. God has created all things for His purposes. We have to get beyond our earthy mindset on people, salvation, creation, and God. God is much too big to put in that bitty box. There have been entire cities of people wiped out that did not know God and where put in that place on purpose to be defeated by Israel in the Old testament. Why woould this be, so His people, the Israelites would trust in Him and know that He is their God. All things are for His purposes. Yes, it does say God does not desire anyone to die and go to hell…of course, but the fact is many will. The majority will not spend eternity in heaven, the road is too narrow and the gate to narrow that leads to heaven…people just cannot accept that way of life.

    My main point in all this is that my God is bigger than any box anyoen can put Him in. He did not create the world, throw people on it, and then spin it into existance to turn out ever how it happens. He is not surprised by anything that happens to any of us…He is in full control. Do you believe that God has a plan for your life? This is a common question and most people will say a resounding “YES” to that question. Then we will ask, do you believe in predestination and many will say with a resounding “NO”. Sorry, but that is a contridiction. God has a predetermined plan for your life…events in your life are set forth already. Yes, he knows when you will sin, when you screw up, and whom you will marry, if you do. He also knows when you will accept Christ as savior, if in fact you do. This is not by some forseen event in the future…He already set the events in your life that would put you in place to be regenrated at heart or have your opened to the gospel, that you would accept the gospel at the predetermined time. This is far to serious to leave it to a sinful unregenerate people to decide of their “own free will” so to speak. If left up to man in his sinful state, man would never come to God….never, never, never. It boils down to “man saves himself by determining when and where he will be saved without any predetermination of God vs God saves man through work of the Holy Spirit who at a set point in time opens the mans heart to be receptive to the gospel presented and thus acccepts Jesus as savior”. My job as well any other preacher or teacher of the word is to present the gospel to all people, period…..after that work has been presented it is the work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate the hearts of those chosen to be in the kingdom of God not man. Man has nothing to do with it. Once we accept Jesus Christ as savior, we should become as empty vessels to filled by the Holy Spirit daily. How do we pour ourselves out daily…by living as the bible tells us to live, sharing the gospel with those to whom the Holy Spirit prompts us to share with, and worshipping and praising our God to the end of the day. Our message and our life is the testimony….the Holy Spirit uses that to “draw” His chosen people to Himself. The greek meaning of the word “draw” is the same as to “drag” in most places in the scriptures. So, you could say that God will “drag” people to Himself. That sounds strange I know, but that is the meaning. It is never used that I have found to be considered as to “persuade” someone to God. God does not “persuade”, he will “drag” you…we are crying, weeping, sinful people that will not come to Him….we had rather stay drunk and curse God than come to Him, however, whenever the “hound of heaven” comes for you, you will eventually give your heart Him…this is the regenerate work of the Holy Spirit.

    Sorry to ramble on too far. I will do more work with the references and all later. One thing I cannot stress enough is that I love my Jesus more now than I ever have. To know and understand that God chose me and I did not chose Him as Jesus tells us is the greatest words I ever heard in my life. Think about that…He chose me…He loved me before the foundations of the world were ever in place, He chose me to be one of His adopted children…this is the love I am talking about….He chose me and all those that come to Him truly. What a wonderful God we serve.

    Maz, I am glad to hear anything you have to say about it though, but do realize I have read and heard just about every arguement against this doctrine. Thanks for taking time to read on this blog and come on back. By the way…I found several misspellings and letters left out of words…was typing too fast I think…anyway, disregard those please. Oh, by the way….my family and I pass out tracks all the time as well. Some “calvinist” are somewhat arrogant in their belief’s and rather than live and preach the word while sharing the gospel they had rather argue doctrine 100% of the time….I am not that way….we share with everyone the Holy Spirit prompts us to speak to or leave a track in different places for people….since the Holy Spirit does the work, He does not need me there to bring about salvation and most likely I would just be in the way. I will share a neat testimony about this later on of how this happened to a good friend of mine….very sweet testimony…God does not need us at all, but He chooses to use us to further His kingdom.

    Pressing on in Christ,
    Scott

  6. Maz said

    Thanks for sharing your belief about this Scott. I do believe in a Sovereign God, but I believe there are times that His hand can be turned, as it was in the OT by Moses in the wilderness when God wanted to kill all the people. A brass pole with a serpent on it saved them….a picture of Christ on the cross.
    I do believe, like you, that Jesus died for all men as the scriptures say in 1 Tim: 2 v 4-6 and 4 v 10.
    The scriptures also say ”whosoever WILL may come”, so there is some will involved somewhere by us.
    Also Jesus had to say in John 5 v 40, ”…you WILL NOT come to me that you may have eternal life.” So it must have been possible for them to come to Him or why should He say that?
    I agree with you on the most part, that God has a plan for our lives, but He also knows the beginning from the end so how much of His foreknowledge is involved in His will is unknown I think. His thots are higher than our thots and His ways higher than ours….no good trying to figure God out.
    As you say, a big issue, but I truly do not believe that we have NO choice in the matter. My own testimony teaches me that. Perhaps will share that later.
    In Christ,
    Maz

    TWO QUICK THOUGHTS HERE. I WILL DEAL WITH THE SCRIPTURES YOU ARE USING IN ANOTHER POST. I DO BELIEVE GOD KNOWS THE BEGINNING FROM THE END…OF COURSE AND I HAVE NO DOUBTS ABOUT THAT AT ALL, HE IS A BIG GOD. HOWEVER, THAT WAS NOT, IN MY VIEW OF THE SCRIPTURE, HOW GOD DETERMINED WHO WILL BE SAVED AND WHO WILL NOT…I DO NOT AGREE THAT HE LOOKED OUT INTO THE FUTURE TO KNOW…HE DETERMINED THIS FROM THE BEGINNING. THAT KIND OF THINKING DOES NOT JELL WITH THE REST OF SCRIPTURE. THAT IS A BIG CONTENTION BETWEEN THE TWO VIEWS I KNOW.

    I DO KNOW THAT WORDS USED IN THE SCRIPTURES CAN THROW US OFF. LIKE “ALL” AND “WHOSOEVER”. THE DOCTRINE HAS NEVER BEEN THAT THE MESSAGE IS ONLY SPOKEN TO A CHOSEN FEW….THE MESSAGE IS SPREAD TO EVERYONE, HOWEVER, ONLY THOSE CHOSEN WILL COME, ONLY THOSE CHOSEN WILL BE REGENERATED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. WE CANNOT DENY THE SCRITPURES THAT TEACH THIS. MATTHEW 22:14 “FOR MANY ARE INVITED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.” THE CALL IS TO ALL, BUT THERE IS A SELECTIVE ELECTION GOING ON HERE, WHETHER THOSE THAT REJECTED CHRIST BECAUSE OF REBELLION, INDIFFERENCE, OR SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS…DOES NOT MATTER, THEIR HEARTS WERE NOT REGENERATED TO ACCEPT THE CALL TO CHRIST AND THEY WERE NOT CHOSEN FROM THE BEGINNING. THIS PARTICULAR PASSAGE IS LIKE A WEDDING INVITATION, BUT CHRIST IS MAKING THE POINT AS I HAVE PUT IT. EPHESIANS 1:3-5 “PRAISE BE TO THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, WHO HAS BLESSED US IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS WITH EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING IN CHRIST. FOR HE CHOSE US IN HIM BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS IN HIS SIGHT. IN LOVE HE PREDESTINED US TO BE ADOPTED AS HIS SONS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS PLEASURE AND WILL…” THIS IS A TREMENDOUS BIT OF SCRIPTURE THAT CAPTURES THE FACT THAT WE DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH OUR SALVATION…IT IS TOTALLY WITHOUT QUESTION AT GOD’S GREAT PLEASURE TO WILL AND SAVE THOSE WHOM HE CHOOSES. THIS IS THE POINT THAT DISAPPOINTS ME MOST…HUMAN BEINGS CANNOT GET PAST NOT HAVING A SAY SO IN THEIR ETERNAL DESTINATION…HUMANS CANNOT GIVE UP THAT PRIDE THAT SAYS “I AM THE ONE WHO ACCEPTED CHRIST”…MAN IN THEIR DEGENERATIVE STATE JUST CANNOT GIVE THAT UP OR NOT THINK THAT WAY. I LOVE THE FACT THAT BEFORE THE FORMATION OF THE WORLD GOD KNEW ME BY NAME AND THAT I WAS CHOSEN TO COME TO HIM THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST AND THAT HE SAVED ME FROM MYSELF AND THAT ALTHOUGH GOD KNEW IF I WAS LEFT ON MY OWN THAT I WOULD NEVER CHOOSE HIM, YET HE CHOSE ME ANYWAY….THIS IS THE GREATEST LOVE I WILL EVER KNOW…THIS GIVES ME SUCH GREAT JOY EACH TIME I THINK OF THIS KIND OF LOVE. ANOTHER HUGE REFERENCE IS 2 THESS 2:13-14 “BUT WE OUGHT ALWAYS TO THANK GOD FOR YOU, BROTHERS LOVED BY THE LORD, BECAUSE FROM THE BEGINNING GOD CHOSE YOU TO BE SAVED THROUGH THE SANCTIFYING WORK OF THE SPIRIT AND THROUGH BELIEF IN THE TRUTH. HE CALLED YOU TO THIS THROUGH OUR GOSPEL, THAT YOU MIGHT SHARE IN THE GLORY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.” I SAY WITH A RESOUNDING “YES” I AM THANKFUL THAT YOU, MAZ, LOVED BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THAT GOD CHOSE YOU TO BE SAVED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING FROM HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE. THAT IS AMAZING TO ME HOW GOD WORKS. IT IS GREAT TO SERVE A GOD THIS BIG THAT ONLY REQUIRES OUR OBEDIENCE TO SPREADING GOD’S HOLY WORD AROUND THE WORLD AND THAT WE DO NOT HAVE TO BE INVOLVED OR RESPONSIBLE IN THE CONVICTING, SAVING, REGENERATING, OF ANY OF THOSE WHOM ARE HEARING GOD’S WORD…THAT IS HIS JOB…TAKES THE PRESSURE OFF OF US TO DO THIS. IF SOMEONE DOES NOT ACCEPT CHRIST, WE ARE NOT HELD RESPONSIBLE…NOR CAN WE TALK OR BEG ANYONE TO ACCEPT CHRIST BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT MUST BE AT WORK IN THE HEART AND MIND OF THAT PERSON OR OUR EFFORTS ARE TOTALLY IN VEIN. I DO NOT WANT TO TALK ANYONE INTO PRAYING A PRAYER TO ACCEPT CHRIST THAT REALLY DOES NOT HAVE IT IN THEIR HEART. 90% IS THE ESTIMATE OF PEOPLE THAT SUPPOSEDLY ACCEPT CHRIST THAT NEVER HAVE A CHANGE IN THEIR LIVES NOR DO THEY EVER SHOW ANY FRUIT OF BEING A BELIEVER….THAT IS BECAUSE MANY OF THOSE 90% WERE TALKED INTO IT AND IT WAS NOT THE WORK OF GOD BUT THE WORK OF MAN.

    I WANT TO SHARE A GREAT QUOTE TO YOU BY P.T. FORSYTHE:

    “What was it that made the tremendous strength of Calvinism? What makes some form of Calvinism indispensable and immortal? It was this: that it cared more to secure the freedom of God than of man. That is what it found in the Cross. That is why it has been the greatest contribution to public liberty ever made. Secure that God be free. Seek first the freedom of God, and all other freedom shall be added to you. The Calvinistic doctrine of predestination was the foundation of modern public liberty; and, deeply, because it was an awful attempt to secure God’s freedom in Grace at any cost […] We must put God’s free grace first – far before our free thought or action […] Let us be more concerned about the freedom of the Word than the freedom of the Church, or the pulpit. Let us care fast for such a free Word as secures God in His freedom. Let the historic Word of Grace have its way with us. Then the Church must be free. But a Church freedom which, in the name of free–thought individualism, or spirituality, feels itself free to abolish that apostolic Word and succession, is destroying Word,
    Church, freedom and future, all together.”

    WOW….WE ARE FREE, BUT WE ARE FREE IN CHRIST, NOT FREE IN OURSELVES WITHOUT ALLOWING GOD THE FREEDOM TO WORK HIS WILL THROUGH US.

    BLESSING TO YOU, MAZ. I HAVE NO DOUBT YOU ARE A BELIEVER AND CONFIDENTLY CALL YOU MY SISTER IN CHRIST…WE JUST MAY DIFFER ON HOW WE GET TO THAT POINT. IT IS A BIG DEAL MIND YOU, BUT WE WILL CONTINUE ON WITH OUR COMMENTS.

    SORRY, I SAID TWO QUICK POINTS DIDN’T I….WELL, I HAVE SUCH A PASSION FOR CHRIST AND HIS WORK AND THAT WE ARE TO SIMPLY TEACH AND PREACH THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD TO ALL…THEN LET GOD DO HIS WORK THROUGH THAT MESSAGE AND DELIVER IT TO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO WILL ACCEPT HIM AS DETERMINED FROM THE BEGINNING.

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  7. Maz said

    I have just read from ”Calvinism, Arminianism and The Word of God”, a Calvary Chapel Perspective, by Chuck Smith, on line. It clearly puts the two beliefs with their points and I can now see that this is far from a clear teaching like Protestantism and Catholicism. I believe that somewhere inbetween both is the truth.
    I just have (and really always had) a problem on how to pray for my lost loved ones. If God has set their salvation or not in stone then is there any point? We cannot change Gods plan for their lives by praying for them, so how can we ask Him to do something that He has not planned to do?
    I have two sons, one is saved and the other (as yet???) isn’t. Would God choose one of my sons and not the other?
    When we witness, are we talking to someone who hasn’t been called…therefore wasting our time? For if few are chosen for eternal life (by God alone and not by mans will atall) why is so much time wasted preaching to millions that will never be able to be saved?
    Can you understand my thinking and my problem with this?
    If God is totally in control of our detiny, what responsibility is left for us? Some could say, well, I am saved, I’v been chosen, so I don’t have to do anything but wait for God to come for me at the Rapture. Once saved always saved, so I can really do what I like because God has planned it all that way anyway.
    This is ofcourse hypothetical, I would not think that way myself but I am trying to put a point over.
    It completely takes away any responsibility on mans part.
    There are other questions like that I have but this is enough for now.
    Maz

    MAZ, IT IS GREAT THAT YOU ARE SEEKING OUT ANSWERS. I ONCE HAD THESE EXACT QUESTIONS. I COULD NOT RECONCILE IT WITH SCRIPTURE. HOWEVER, OVER TIME GOD HAS DONE A TREMENDOUS WORK IN MY LIFE BY SHOWING IN HIS WORD WHAT HE IS REALLY ALL ABOUT. I FINALLY FOUND THE GOD THAT I THOUGHT I ALREADY KNEW, BUT REALLY DIDN’T AND I FOUND THE LOVE OF MY LORD JESUS THAT I HAD NEVER FULLY EXPERIENCED BEFORE. THIS IS WHY MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD IS SO WONDERFUL NOW RATHER THEN I FIRST ACCEPTED CHRIST. I CANNOT HARDLY EXPRESS MY LOVE AND ADORATION FOR MY SAVIOR NOW KNOW WHAT I KNOW THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES.

    I WILL TRY TO ADDRESS SOME OF YOUR CONERNS IN THESE QUESTIONS LATER ON TODAY…SO COME BACK AND READ THIS COMMENT PAGE AGAIN. I HAVE SEVERAL APPOINTMENTS I NEED TO TEND TO FIRST AND THE KIDS NEED TO SEE ME ON OCCASSION:-) ANYWAY, HANG IN THERE MAZ, IT WILL ALL COME TO WHEN IT SHOULD. ONE THING TO REMEMBER ABOUT YOUR BOYS, THEY ARE GOD’S…THEY BELONG TO HIM. WE DO NOT LIKE TO THINK THAT ONE WOULD BE CHOSEN AND THE OTHER NOT, BUT WE MUST RELINQUISH THAT CONTROL TO GOD AND JUST PRAY (NOT OUR WILL BUT GOD’S). THIS IS HARD, BUT THIS IS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN CONTINUE ON WITH OUR LIVES IN OBEDIENCE IS BY ALLOWING GOD THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE RATHER THAN MAN TRYING TO PUSH GOD TO DO SOMETHING NOT ALREADY PLANNED. IT IS NOT THAT CLEAR I KNOW AND LOTS OF QUESTIONS COME UP WHEN ONE SEEMS TO BE ANSWERED, BUT TRUST ME IN THIS…GOD IS IN CONTROL OF HIS CREATION!

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  8. Maz said

    Thanks. One little question, Does God save whole families?…like He did with the jailer when Paul and Silas were in prison. It says that he was saved ”And his house”. Can I claim my son for Jesus? He was dedicated to God along with his brother when they were small and we went to a Baptist Church.

    MAZ, YOUR CONCERN FOR YOUR SON’S SALVATION IS WONDERFUL. EACH INDIVIDUAL COMES TO CHRIST ALONE NOT AS FAMILIES UNFORTUNATELY. IT WOULD BE GREAT IF THE PARENTS WERE SAVED THEN THE ENTIRE FAMILY WAS CONSIDERED SAVED…THAT WOULD MAKE IT A SLAM DUNK FOR MANY FAMILIES.

    WHEN THE SCRIPTURES ARE ADDRESSING THE JAILER MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE SCRIPTURE SPEAKING ABOUT THE JAILERS ENTIRE FAMILY BEING SAVED IS THAT WHEN THE JAILER WAS SAVED, THROUGH THE TESTIMONY OF HIS SALVATION THE REST OF THE FAMILY CAME TO KNOW CHRIST TOO. EACH ONE OF THEM SEPARATELY HAD TO MAKE THAT DECISION OF COURSE, BUT NONE THE LESS THEY WERE SAVED. I AM SURE IT WAS NOT INSTANT FOR EACH, BUT IN THE END ALL WERE SAVED.

    CHANCES ARE THAT YOUR SON WILL BE SAVED IN TIME. I KNOW TIME IS FLEETING, BUT THE LORD HAS HIS PLAN FOR HIM AND IT MAY REQUIRE MORE TIME FOR HIM BEFORE HE COMES TO KNOW HIM. DOES HE SHOW ANY INTEREST IN THE THINGS OF GOD AT ALL? DOES HE ASK ANY QUESTIONS CONCERNING FAITH, GOD, SALVATION, CHURCH, ETC.? OR DOES HE NOT EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE GOD, THE BIBLE, SALVATION, OR THE THINGS OF GOD AT ALL? EACH OF US HAVE A GOD APPOINTED TIME FOR EVERYTHING. SO, EVEN THOUGH YOU CONTINUE TO PRAY DO NOT LOOSE HEART OVER HIS LACK OF SALVATION…IF HE IS MEANT TO ACCEPT CHRIST HE WILL. THE HOLY SPIRIT COULD BE WORKING ON HIM NOW AND YET YOU CANNOT SEE IT. THE HOLY SPIRIT’S WORK ON THE HEART AND MIND IS AN AMAZING THING. I CANNOT COUNT THE NUMBER OF YOUNG PEOPLE THAT I HAVE TAUGHT OVER THE YEARS THAT I COULD HAVE SWORN THEY NEVER HEARD A WORD OR EVEN CARED….YET DOWN THE ROAD THEY CAME TO KNOW CHRIST AND ARE NOW LIVING A GODLY LIFE. EACH OF US ARE SEED PLANTERS AND THEN SOME FERTLIZE THAT SEED, BUT ONLY GOD KNOWS WHEN THAT HARVEST WILL BE.

    YOU KNOW THAT IN HEAVEN WE WILL NO LONGER BE LIVING AS FAMILIES IN THE SAME SENSE AS WE DO HERE OR AS WE UNDERSTAND A FAMILY HERE…IT WILL DIFFERENT ALL TOGETHER. I DO BELIEVE WE WILL KNOW EACH OTHER, BUT OUR FEELINGS WILL HAVE CHANGED TO A DIFFERENT DIRECTION TOWARDS CHRIST. THE PAIN AND TEARS AND HELPLESS FEELINGS WILL ALL BE GONE. OUR NEW FOCUS FOR ETERNITY WILL OUR ENDLESS DEVOTED RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST. IT WILL BE GRAND TO EXPERIENCE FOREVER.

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  9. Scott said

    MAZ, I WILL ATTEMPT TO ADDRESS SOME OF YOUR FURTHER QUESTIONS AS BEST I CAN.

    I just have (and really always had) a problem on how to pray for my lost loved ones.

    SPEAK TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART. HE WANTS NOTHING LESS THAN TOTAL HONESTY. I DO HAVE A SUGGESTION ON AN EFFECTIVE PRAYER TIME…REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY A SUGGESTION. BEFORE YOU PRAY, READ FROM GOD’S WORD… WHATEVER YOU INTENDED TO READ JUST KEEP GOING FROM THERE. THEN MEDITATE ON WHAT YOU READ FOR A PERIOD OF TIME…THAT IS UP TO YOU HOW LONG YOU MEDITATE. AFTER THIS THEN BEGIN TO PRAY. YOU MIGHT EXPERIENCE A DIFFERENT THOUGHT PROCESS WHILE PRAYING FROM THIS STAND POINT. WHAT I HAVE FOUND IS THAT WHEN I APPROACH THE THRONE OF GOD THIS WAY MY PRAYERS CHANGE. IF I HAD JUST JUMPED IN AND STARTED PRAYING BEFORE READING AND MEDITATING MOST OF THE PRAYER WOULD HAVE BEEN A LIST OF REQUEST, WANTS, NEEDS, MOSTLY MY MOANING AND GROANING. HOWEVER, WHEN I STARTED READING AND MEDITATING ON HIS WORD FIRST MY PRAYERS CHANGED TO A TOTAL FOCUS ON GOD AND WHAT HE WANTS. THE DESIRES OF MY HEART GOT IN LINE WITH HIS DESIRES. MY FOCUS WAS PRAISING AND THANKING GOD. THINKING ABOUT MY NEEDS AND MY CONCERNS WENT AWAY. MY ENTIRE FOCUS WAS REDIRECTED. IT IS AMAZING HOW THIS HAPPENS, BUT IT DOES. SO, YOU MIGHT TRY PRAYING THAT WAY SOMETIME IF YOU DON’T ALREADY PRAY THIS WAY.

    If God has set their salvation or not in stone then is there any point? We cannot change Gods plan for their lives by praying for them, so how can we ask Him to do something that He has not planned to do?

    I REFER YOU TO THE SUGGESTION ABOVE FOR OUR PRAYER TIME. WE DO NOT CHANGE GOD’S PLANS, BUT WE MAY FIND OURSELVES PRAYING IN A WAY THAT BECOMES IN DIRECT LINE WITH HIS PLANS. FOR US WE MUST RELINQUISH OUR LIVES TO HIM WITHOUT KEEPING ONE THING BACK FROM HIM. THE POINT IS THAT GOD MAY BE WAITING ON US TO PRAY FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON’S SALVATION…HE DETERMINED LONG AGO OUR LIVES INCLUDING OUR PRAYER LIVES AND EVERYTHING. ONE THING I HAVE COME TO KNOW ABOUT PRAYER IS THAT THE REAL PURPOSE OF PRAYER TO CHANGE US, MOLD US, BRING US CLOSER TO GOD…NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN CHANGING SOMEONE ELSE. THIS IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND, BUT IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE IF YOU GRAB HOLD OF IT.

    I DIRECT YOU TO THE PRAYER THE LORD GAVE AS THE MODEL PRAYER. THE ONLY TIME HE ASK FOR ANYTHING REALLY IS FOR DAILY BREAD. EVERYTHING ELSE IS A PRAISE AND A WAY OF CHANGING US NOT PRAYING FOR SOMEONE ELSE’S NEED FOR SALVATION OR ANYTHING ELSE. THEN IN THE GARDEN HE IS PRAYING AND ASK IF THE CUP COULD PASS, BUT VERY QUICKLY SAYS “THY WILL BE DONE”. I DO NOT REMEMBER HIM PRAYING FOR ANYONE ELSE. HE EVEN ALLOWED HIS FRIEND LAZERUS TO DIE AND THE FAMILY TO BE GRIEVED WITHOUT PRAYING FOR THEM…YET THIS WAS SO THE GREATNESS AND GLORY OF GOD TO BE KNOWN. HE HAS HIS PURPOSES. FYI…I AM STILL LEARNING ABOUT HOW GOD WANTS ME TO PRAY AS WELL, BUT I HAVE GRASPED THIS MUCH OF IT SO FAR. I STRUGGLE WITH “SHOULD WE PRAY FOR SOMEONE TO BE SAVED?” “SHOULD WE PRAY FOR PROTECTION FOR OUR CHILDREN?” I HAVE STRUGGLED WITH THAT LINE OF THOUGHT FOR YEARS. I MEAN IF WE CANNOT CHANGE GOD’S MIND AND PRAYER IS TO CHANGE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM RATHER THAN WHAT WE ARE IN IT FOR THEN SHOULD WE BE PRAYING FOR OTHERS SALVATION? ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF GOD’S PREDETERMINED LIFE FOR EACH PERSON AND PREDETERMINED SALVATION OF EACH INDIVIDUAL. I HAD A VERY GODLY BIBLE TEACHER AT OUR CHURCH SOME YEARS BACK THAT ASKED THAT QUESTION ONE TIME ABOUT PROTECTION FOR OUR CHILDREN. HE AND HIS WIFE HAD BEEN THROUGH THE DEATH OF A CHILD YEARS EARLIER. HE HAD A GREAT PROSPECTIVE ON THIS TYPE OF STUFF. HE DID TELL US THAT HE WAS NOT POSITIVELY SURE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER ON THIS AT THAT TIME, BUT HE WAS LEANING TOWARDS THE FACT THAT WE WERE WASTING BREATH PRAYING FOR SOMEONES SALVATION. THIS SOUNDS COLD, I KNOW, BUT IN REALITY IT IS NOT. GOD WILL DO HIS WORK ON THE UNDAVED PERSON THAT EVENTUALLY WILL BE SAVED. HE WANTS OUR ATTENTION ON GROWING THE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM IN PREPARATION FOR OUR ETERNITY WITH HIM IN HEAVEN. THIS IS PREPARATION TIME FOR THE SAVED AS WELL AS TIME FOR THOSE NOT YET IN THE FAMILY OF GOD TO COME INTO THE FAMILY. AGAIN, I AM STILL LEARNING AS WELL AND WILL BE UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS FOR ME.

    I have two sons, one is saved and the other (as yet???) isn’t. Would God choose one of my sons and not the other?

    HE COULD AT HIS PLEASURE AND FOR HIS PURPOSES. THIS IS NOT FOR US TO KNOW. ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS TO KEEP GROWING IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST. GET TO KNOW YOUR GOD MORE AND MORE EACH DAY AND GOD WILL DO HIS WORK IN YOUR SON IN HIS TIME.

    When we witness, are we talking to someone who hasn’t been called…therefore wasting our time?

    WE DO NOT KNOW WHO IS CALLED AND WHO IS NOT. THIS IS WHY WE ARE TO SHARE TO GOOD NEWS WITH EVERYONE. WE SHOOT THE SHOTGUN AND THE HOLY SPIRIT DIRECTS THE BULLETS. IT IS NOT A WASTE OF TIME AT ALL. IT IS COMMANDED IN SCRIPTURE.

    For if few are chosen for eternal life (by God alone and not by mans will at all) why is so much time wasted preaching to millions that will never be able to be saved?

    ACTUALLY THE PREACHING IN THE CHURCHES SHOULD BE IN THE EQUIPPING OF THE SAINTS TO GO IN SERVICE FOR HIM. OUR LIVES LIVED EACH DAY AND US SHARING WITH OUR NEIGHBORS AND FRIENDS AND FAMILY ABOUT WHAT GOD IS DOING IN OUR LIVES WILL BE WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT USES TO DRAW PEOPLE UNTO HIMSELF. I HAVE SEEN NUMEROUS PEOPLE COME TO CHRIST IN A SERVICE THAT WAS IN JOB…WAS NOT AN EVANGLISTIC MESSAGE AT ALL, BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS WORKING ON THAT PERSON AND STILL USED THE MESSAGE TO BRING THAT PERSON TO HIMSELF. THE STORY OF A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE YEARS AGO GOES LIKE THIS. SHE WAS HAVING A TERRIBLE TIME IN HER MARRIAGE. SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY RUTHLESS AND AS MUCH ROUGH PERSON AS ANY MAN AT THE TIME. HOWEVER, GOD HAD BEGIN TO WORK ON HER HEART. HER BROTHER HAD SHARED HIS TESTIMONY WITH HER SOMETIME BEFORE. ONE MORNING EARLY SHE WAS JOGGING AND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SIDEWALK WAS A BOOK OPEN. IT WAS A BIBLE THAT HAD FLOWN OFF OF THE TOP OF SOMEONES CAR COMING AROUND A CORNER. SHE PICKED IT UP AND BEGIN TO READ. RIGHT THERE ON THE SIDEWALK WITH NOT A PERSON AROUND SHE CALLED OUT TO GOD TO SAVE HER…SAVE HER HE DID…HER PROBLEMS WERE NOT RESOLVED IMMEDIATELY AND THE STORY CONTINUES, BUT I WILL SAVE THE REST FOR LATER ON. HOWEVER, THE FACT IS SHE WAS NOT AT A CHURCH LISTENING TO A MESSAGE NOR HAD SHE BEEN IN A CHURCH…THEY DID NOT GO TO CHURCH. BUT GOD WAS WORKING ON HER HEART SHE ADMITTED LOOKING BACK. SHE WAS SEEKING ANSWERS TO HER LIFE’S PROBLEMS. FINALLY, IN GREAT DISPAIR, THERE WAS THAT BIBLE AND GOD’S WORD POPPED OFF THAT PAGE AT HER DRAGGING HER TO HIMSELF. I LOVE THAT TESTIMONY STORY.

    Can you understand my thinking and my problem with this?
    If God is totally in control of our destiny, what responsibility is left for us? Some could say, well, I am saved, I’v been chosen, so I don’t have to do anything but wait for God to come for me at the Rapture. Once saved always saved, so I can really do what I like because God has planned it all that way anyway.

    THIS IS NOT OUR PROBLEM. MANY SO CALLED CHRISTIANS DO SET BACK AND DO NOTHING. ONE HAS TO QUESTION IS THEY REALLY ARE SAVED. THE AUTHENTIC CHRISTIAN, MAZ, DOES NOT SET BACK. THE REAL CHRISTIAN GETS IN THERE AND STARTS HUNGERING FOR GOD’S WORD. THEY ARE LOOKING FOR THE MEAT. THEY CANNOT GET ENOUGH OF GOD’S WORD. THE LOVE THAT HE SHOWS THEM. THOSE THAT TAKE THE APPROACH YOU HAVE DESCRIBED I WOULD NOT CONSIDER REAL CHRISTIANS. AT LEAST THEY ARE NOT BARING FRUIT AND THAT IS ONE THING WE CAN KNOW A FELLOW BROTHER OR SISTER IN CHRIST BY IS THE FRUOT THEY ARE PRODUCING…NONE AT ALL IS A GOOD INDICATOR. IT IS NOT FOR US TO JUDGE, BUT WHO IS JUDGING IF A PARTICULAR PERSON SAYS THEY ARE SAVED AND IS BAPTIZED YET THEY NEVER DAWN THE DOORS OF A CHURCHA GAIN, NOR DO THEY DO ANYTHING IN THE NAME OF CHRIST EVER AGAIN EITHER, THIS WOULD OBVIOUS.

    This is of course hypothetical, I would not think that way myself but I am trying to put a point over.
    It completely takes away any responsibility on mans part.

    KEEP SEEKING THE PEACE YOU DESIRE IN THIS. I HAVE THROWN ALOT AT YOU IN THIS COMMENT SECTION. TAKE TIME TO MULL IT OVER. STUDY THE SCRITPURES CONCERNING PRAYER, EVANGLIZING, ETC. ALL THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS ARE IN THE BIBLE…IT JUST TAKES TIME TO FIND THEM SOMETIMES.

    BLESSINGS TO YOU AND YOUR BOYS IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  10. Maz said

    Scott:
    Thanks for all that, you have been quite thorough.
    I agree with your first post about families, I know that because I am saved doesn’t mean to say that my family can be saved by my salvation, but because I am saved I would like to believe that my family will be saved through my prayer and because God wants to save whole families. I cannot bare to think that anyone in my family would go to hell and suffer for eternity because God did not want to save them.
    I love my sons, they are the most precious people in my life next to God (Who is the most important) and the Lord knows how I feel about their salvation, so, the answer to how I pray is WITH ALL MY HEART….I don’t use words very often, I just cry out from my inner being, cos words are not good enough…and I don’t really know how to articulate my feelings, but God knows. I do pray in tongues which is such a blessing, because then I know I am praying in the spirit and in Gods will. And the Bible tells us that Jesus also intercedes for us.

    I usually read my Bible first thing in the morning. I’m going through Revelation at the moment. I choose a certain book or letter, or a gospel and read through, a verse each day. Then I pray. I know I must try and think on Jesus first, and ‘feel’ His presence, to have ‘fellowship’ with Him before asking for anything.
    Prayer is communion with the Lord I know, not just giving Him my shopping list.
    I have prayed for my son all his 34 years, he went to Sunday school and through youth group until he was 13 and decided he didn’t want to carry on coming to Church. Both my sons said a prayer to Jesus when they were 4 years old, but with Mark (my youngest) he has shown no interest in changing his life. He does believe in God but that is as far as it goes, he does not see any reason to change his life style.
    My other (older) son, 36, went through Sunday school the same, youth group aswell and then at 15 made a decision to follow Christ and was baptised full emersion in our Church, which was Pentecostal. He has tried to live a Christian life though he has found it hard. Recently he went through something quite horrendous and it has brought him closer to God.
    He is reading his Bible more but still he finds it difficult. I say…join the club!

    The Lord says that He will give us the desires of our heart…and I know that saving a soul from hell is not only my desire but His….I also believe it is His will….this would probably not be a Calvinistic idea….but I have always believed that it was Gods will that none should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. Ofcourse we know they won’t all come but again if Calvinism is right it rules out Gods will to save the ALL.

    I have always had difficulty with where Jesus says, ”Ask anything in My name and I will do it”.
    I should have faith to believe this statement but if the Calvinist is right, how can Jesus keep that promise? I know it is according to His will….so were back to whether it is Gods will to save my son or let him perish in hell, you know that just doesn’t sound right…..that God would send my son to hell because He has chosen to, while my other son is chosen for heaven.
    Does Gods heart break for the souls of men? I think it does. I believe Jesus heart was shattered on the cross because they rejected His pure and deep love.
    Love was crucified that day.
    So, I cannot imagine my God choosing indiscriminately to send someone to Hell because He can, there would have to be a reason, or He would not be impartial.

    In the Old Testement God chose Abraham to head up a new nation…..Israel, through Jacob, was His chosen people, but God also allowed people from outside to come into the household of Israel, Rahab the harlot, and Ruth who became the great…however many it was… grandmother of Jesus!
    Is it only the ‘chosen’ that is saved in the N.T?
    Many are called……

    Jesus said, ”He that comes to Me, I will in no wise cast out.”
    He that comes…..it would not be sense to say that, if everyone that came was chosen and had no choice in the matter…..

    These are more thoughts on the matter which I find difficult to reconcile with a totally, absolute Sovereign God, Who’s hand cannot be turned, or His mind be changed, especially when it concerns someones salvation.

    This morning when I was reading and meditating and talking with the Lord about this, and thinking about His choosing Israel as a special people and how grace and truth came by Jesus Christ…..these words came to me….”Grace opened up the door….to come”………
    Israel was chosen and special…….Jesus came for them first…not for the Gentiles……..then He died……
    Now everyone could come…….
    Grace opened up the door for ALL…….
    It was a wonderful revelation within my spirit and which I really believe meant that…….Grace was the door for everyone to be able to come…..no more ‘special’ people chosen as in the Old Testement,
    but a people chosen IN CHRIST. So that those who come to Jesus are the chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. And that is where His foreknowledge comes in.

    I could ramble on like this but maybe…hopefully, you can see what I am trying to say.

    I will continue to seek Gods heart in this.
    Maz

    I WILL ADDRESS SOME OF THIS IN THE OTHER COMMENT SECTION. ONE THING I AM OBSERVING AND DO NOT TAKE THIS WRONG, IS THAT YOU SEEM TO BE ALL OVER THE BOARD WITH MUCH OF THESE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS. I WILL TRY TO BRING THEM BACK IN AS I SEE IT. NOW, I MAY NEVER CONVINCE YOU OF ANYTHING AND THAT IS FINE. MUCH OF THIS WAS MY BELLIEF SEVERAL YEARS AGO UNTIL I STARTED STUDYING GODS WORD HERMINUTICALLY AND WITH THE GREEK AND HEBREW BESIDE ME AS WELL. I STARTED REALIZING THAT WHAT I THOUGHT A WORD TO MEAN IN MY LITTLE HUMAN BRAIN REALLY WAS REFERRING TO SOMETHING ELSE. THE WORD “ALL” IS ONE SUCH WORD THAT HAS CONFUSED ENTIRE RELIGIONS, DENOMINATIONS, AND CERTAINLY CHRISTIANS FOR AGES. SO, BE LOOKING AT THE OTHER COMMENTS YOU MADE FOR ME TO ADDRESS EVERYTHING AT ONCE.

    SCOTT

  11. Maz said

    I have been looking at both beliefs again and it seems even clearer to me, and in my heart, that if it is possible for someone to lose their salvation, as the scriptures appears to show in Hebrews, then it wasn’t fixed by Gods choice. The argument that they were not really born-again in the first place would negate the possibility of losing salvation…you can’t lose what you never had.

    The idea that some are chosen to go to Heaven and some are chosen to go to hell means that the ones chosen to go to Heaven had no choice but to go (which they obviously wouldn’t argue about) but where is the freedom to love God and accept Him as Savior?
    And the ones going to hell can do nothing to save themselves from going there, therefore have no free will to stop themselves.

    Either way, people get sent wherever God says without any choice for or against on the persons part. This, I truly believe, is not what my God wants or has ever wanted. Right from the beginning he has wanted man to choose to love Him, and I believe He still longs for people to freely choose to love Him and follow Him. He does not want robots with no will of their own. Isn’t it wonderful to have someone love you and choose to marry you,rather than for you to tell them, I want you, you will marry me and love me!
    Just some more deep thots to ponder.
    Maz.

    AGAIN, I AM GOING TO COMBINE ALL THIS INTO ONE COMMENT SECTION OR AT LEAST WHAT I CAN.

    SCOTT

  12. Scott said

    I have prayed for my son all his 34 years, he went to Sunday school and through youth group until he was 13 and decided he didn’t want to carry on coming to Church. Both my sons said a prayer to Jesus when they were 4 years old, but with Mark (my youngest) he has shown no interest in changing his life. He does believe in God but that is as far as it goes, he does not see any reason to change his life style.

    HERE IS AN AREA THAT I STARTED SEEING PROBLEMS SOME YEARS AGO WITH THE CHARLES FINNEY/ARMENIAN BELIEF SYSTEM. I HAVE HEARD SO MANY SAY, “WELL HE OR SHE SAID A PRAYER OR THE SINNERS PRAYER SO THEY MUST BE SAVED”. THIS IS TRAGIC PLACING ONES ETERNITY IN WORDS OF A PRAYER RATHER THAN A LIFE CHANGING BELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT MOVES UPON THEM. I AM NOT SAYING THIS WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR SONE, BUT I HEAR IT SO OFTEN AND MANY HAVE DIED THINKING THEY WERE SAVED AND IN FACT PROBABLY WERE NOT…I AM NOT THE FINAL JUDGE OF THAT, SO I CANNOT SAY WITH 100% CERTAINTY, BUT NO FRUIT MAKE ME BELIEVE OTHERWISE. I REMEMBER WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT STARTED DEALING WITH ME 30 YEARS AGO, AND THEN WHEN I FINALLY GAVE MY LIFE TO HIM. IT WAS NOT A PRESSURE BY ANYONE OR ANYONE PLEADING WITH ME. THE HOLY SPIRIT HAD REGENERATED MY HEART OR OPENED MY HEART SO I COULD RECEIVE HIS WORD AND WANT TO ACCEPT HIM…I DID FINALLY MONTHS AFTER HE BEGAN THIS WORK IN ME. IT HAS BEEN A WONDERFUL 30 YEARS SINCE KNOWING HIM PERSONALLY. THROUGHOUT THESE 30 YEARS I HAVE COME THROUGH MANY DIFFERENT THOUGHTS AND DOCTRINAL BELIEFS, BUT HAVE RESTED ON WHAT I BELIEVE SCRITPURE TO CLEARLY TEACH. IT IS THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND NOT THE WORK OF MAN TO THE SALVATION OF ANYONE.

    My other (older) son, 36, went through Sunday school the same, youth group aswell and then at 15 made a decision to follow Christ and was baptised full emersion in our Church, which was Pentecostal. He has tried to live a Christian life though he has found it hard. Recently he went through something quite horrendous and it has brought him closer to God.
    He is reading his Bible more but still he finds it difficult. I say…join the club!

    THE SCRIPTURE CAN BE DIFFICULT, BUT WHEN YOU BEGIN TO BE A “WORD HOG” SO TO SPEAK. BREAKING DOWN EACH VERSE BY ITS WORDS AND WHEN YOU RUN ACROSS A WORD OR SEVERAL WORDS YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND, LOOK IT UP AND REFERENCE IT TO OTHER PARTS OF THE SCRIPTURES UNTIL YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF IT. THIS TOOK SCRIPTURE FROM BEING SOMEWHAT MEANINGLESS AT TIMES AND BORING TO THE MOST GLORIOUS VERBAGE I HAVE EVER READ OR WILL READ. MY TWO OLDER DAUGHTERS ARE BEING TAUGHT IN THEIR HIGHSCHOOL YOUTH GROUP HOW TO STUDY GODS WORD HERMINUTICALLY…GLEANING FROM THE SCRIPTURES ALL THEY CAN. IT GETS DEEP SOMETIMES FOR THEM, BUT IT IS A TREMENDOUS CHALLENGE FOR THEM THAT I LOVE. I CAN SEE THAT GODS WORD COMES TO LIFE FOR THEM IN A WAY I COULD NEVER UNDERSTAND IT AT 17 AND 15. AS THE LORD WORKS IN YOUR SON HE WILL START TO GET IT. HOPEFULLY HE IS IN A STRONG BIBLE TEACHING CHURCH THAT BRINGS OUT GODS WORD THIS WAY AND WILL CHALLENGE HIM TO GO TO HIS BIBLE AND STUDY WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT.

    The Lord says that He will give us the desires of our heart…and I know that saving a soul from hell is not only my desire but His….I also believe it is His will….this would probably not be a Calvinistic idea….but I have always believed that it was Gods will that none should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. Ofcourse we know they won’t all come but again if Calvinism is right it rules out Gods will to save the ALL.

    CAN I TAKE YOU BACK TO PHARAOH AND MOSES AT THE RED SEA. GOD HARDENED PHARAOHS HEART AND HE AND HIS ARMY PERISHED TO HELL I THE RED SEA. GOD WILLED THAT PHARAOH DIE THAT DAY WITHOUT KNOWING HIM. HE HAD OPPORTUNITY GALORE TO KNOW THE GOD OF ISRAEL, BUT HE WOULD NOT AND IN THE END COULD NOT.

    IT IS DIFFICULT TO SEPARATE SOME OF WHAT YOU SAY HERE. MOST PEOPLE MISUNDERSTAND WHAT THE CALVINIST THEOLOGY IS. GOD WILL GIVE US THE DESIRES OF OUR HEART AS IT LINES UP WITH HIS. WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE WHEN WE ARE PRAYING THAT THE DESIRE OF OUR HEART HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE WANT OUT OF IT FOR OUR OWN PURPOSES. GODS WILL IS DONE FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES. WE CANNOT PUT GOD IN THE BOX THAT HAS HIM THINKING AND ACTING AND BELIEVING LIKE WE DO. GODS WAYS ARE NOT MANS WAYS AND HIS THOUGHTS ARE NOT OUR THOUGHTS. DO YOU REALLY KNOW THAT HE WOULD NOT CREATE SOMEONE THAT FROM THE BEGINNING THEY WERE BOUND FOR HELL? MANY VILE PEOPLE I SEE ON A WEEKLY BASIS I BELIEVE WERE CREATED FOR THE PURPOSE OF CHALLENGING ME IN MY FAITH AND TO GROW IN THAT FAITH. THESE PEOPLE WILL NEVER COME TO KNOW GOD…IF THEY DO, THAT IS TERRIFIC AND BY GODS TREMENDOUS GRACE THIS COULD HAPPEN. HOWEVER, GOD CREATES PEOPLE FOR HIS PURPOSES NOT OURS. IT IS NOT MY DESIRE FOR SOMEONE TO BE SAVED THAT MATTERS…IT IS GODS BASED ON WHAT GODS PURPOSES AND PLEASURE IS FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE. I CANNOT REALLY EXPLAIN ALOT OF THIS WITHIN THIS SHORT SECTION. ALL OF THIS GOES WAY TO DEEP AND I DO NOT WANT TO THROW TOO MUCH OUT TO YOU AT THIS TIME…A PERSON CAN DROWN IN THIS STUFF IF TOO MUCH IS PUT OUT AT ONE TIME. I USED SEVERAL SCRIPTURES YESTERDAY IN ANOTHER COMMENT THAT I WILL ALWAYS REFER YOU BACK TO. EPHESIANS 1 IS A GREAT CHAPTER TO STUDY ON THIS SUBJECT OF CHOSEN. ROMANS IS A GREAT BOOK THAT IS PAULS GREATEST WORK I THINK AND THIS IS BROUGHT OUT OVER AND OVER THROUGHOUT ROMANS OF THE ELECT OR CHOSEN OF GOD. I MEAN HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS OF BOOKS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN ON THIS STUFF…I CANNOT IN MY LITTLE MIND DO IT JUSTICE HERE. I JUST KNOW AFTER COMING THROUGH THE MAZE OF BELIEF THAT YOU HAVE AND I ONCE HAD AND NOW HAVE RESTED IN THE BELIEF I HAVE NOW…I REALLY HAVE MORE FREEDOM, DO NOT FEEL GUILTY, HUMBLED TO HAVE BEEN CHOSEN, UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES MUCH BETTER COMING FROM THIS THOUGHT RATHER THE OTHER WAY, CAN REST MY CARES UPON CHRIST BETTER BECAUSE ALL OF THIS IS HIS PROBLEM NOT MINE AS TO SOMEONES SALVATION (SURE I CARE WHETHER MY ENTIRE FAMILY IS SAVED OR NOT, BUT I WILL NOT LET MY FEELINGS OR DESIRES GET IN THE WAY OF GODS GREATER PLAN..I HAVE TO RELEASE WHAT I FEEL TO BEING OBEDIENT TO GODS WILL), I SENSE A GREATER FREEDOM TO SHARE THE GOSPEL WITH OTHERS SINCE IT IS THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT NOT MY EFFORTS (I DELIVER THE MESSAGE AND LEAVE TO ACTION IN THE HEART TO THE HOLY SPIRIT), AND SO MUCH MORE. I CANNOT GIVE YOU MY EXPERIENCE HERE IN WORDS…IT IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE. THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS TO DO THAT WORK. IF YOU REALLY SEEK OUT WHICH IS TO BE TRUE ON THIS I THINK IN TIME YOU WILL START TO UNDERSTAND IT…IT TOOK FOR OVER 20 YEARS AND ONCE I UNDERSTOOD IT ALL AND HOW IT ALL FIT INTO GODS PLAN IN THE SCRIPTURES IT WAS SUCH A HUGE EYE OPENING EVENT I COULD NOT BELIEVE THE DECEPTION I WAS UNDER FOR SO LONG. I GREW UP SOUTHERN BAPTIST AND NOW ALOT OF THE FAILURES OF THE DENOMINATION ARE SO CRYSTAL CLEAR IT IS NO WONDER MANY OF THESE CHURCHES HAVE NO POWER AND ARE TURING “SEEKER SENSITIVE OR EMERGENT”. THE REASON FOR THE LACK OF POWER IS THAT ALL THE EFFORTS ARE FROM MAN AND NOT GOD. HOW CAN WE SET GOALS FOR SALVATIONS AND BAPTISMS? YOU CANNOT SET GOALS FOR THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT…THIS IS MANS DEAL. MOST OF THIS TYPE OF THNKING STARTED WITH CHARLES FINNEY UNFORTUNATELY BACK IN THE 1860’S. PRIOR TO THAT PREACHERS PREACHED THE WORD OF GOD AND LET THE HOLY SPIRIT DO THE WORK IN THE LIVES OF HSI CHOSEN PEOPLE. THERE WAS NO ALTER CALLS IN JONATHON EDWARDS DAY…NO ALTER CALLS IN THE GREAT AWAKENINGS….PEOPLE HEARD THE WORD OF GOD PREACHED AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKED MIGHTILY IN THEIR HEARTS UNTO SALVATION FOR MANY. IT WAS NOT IN PLEADING WITH THEM TO COME FORWARD AT THE END OF THE SERVICE….MUCH OF GODS SAVING WORK IS DONE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH AND RIGHTLY SO.

    I have always had difficulty with where Jesus says, ”Ask anything in My name and I will do it”.
    I should have faith to believe this statement but if the Calvinist is right, how can Jesus keep that promise? I know it is according to His will….so were back to whether it is Gods will to save my son or let him perish in hell, you know that just doesn’t sound right…..that God would send my son to hell because He has chosen to, while my other son is chosen for heaven.

    I AM NOT SURE WHAT CALVINIST HAS TO DO WITH WHETHER JESUS KEEPING THIS STATEMENT IS ALL ABOUT…THAT BAFFLES ME. YOU ARE TAKING A WORD LIKE “ANYTHING” TO MEAN “WHATEVER YOU WANT”. MEANING THAT YOU MUST NOT HAVE ENOUGH FAITH IN THAT STATEMENT BECAUSE WHAT I ASK FOR IS NOT COMING ABOUT…THIS IS WRONG THEOLOGY. HE IS NOT SAYING THAT. THIS IS WHY THIS VERSE IN SCRIPTURE IS SO MISUSED BY MANY IN THE CHURCH TODAY. WHEN IN PRAYER AND WE ASK FOR SOMETHING IT MUST BE IN HIS WILL…IT IS NOT A MATTER OF BELIEVING IN A STATEMENT…THIS IS ABOUT BEING IN THE WILL OF GOD WHEN WE PRAY. THIS IS HUGE AND THE MISUSE OF THIS VERSE IS WHY SO MANY LEAVE THE CHURCH BECAUSE THEY PRAY AND ASK FOR SO MANY THINGS AND THEN THE PRAYER IS NOT ANSWERED LIKE THEY THOUGHT SO WHAT IS THE USE…THEY HAVE THIS GUILT THAT THEY CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH FAITH TO BELIEVE THAT VERSE…NAME IT AND CLAIM…I AM NOT OF THIS BELIEF AND IT HAS NEVER WORKED IN MY LIFE OR THE LIFE OF THOSE AROUND ME. CHRIST ASKED FOR GOD “TO LET THIS CUP PASS OVER ME” AND YET HE SAID “YOUR WILL NOT MINE BE DONE”. DID THE CUP PASS OVER? NO! HE STILL HAD TO SUFFER AND HE KNEW IT…NOW PEOPLE COULD SAY THE WAY MANY BELIEVE THAT JESUS JUST DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH FAITH THAT THE CUP WOULD PASS OVER HIM…THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT RIGHT, BUT THAT IS THE WAY MANY APPROACH IT.

    Does Gods heart break for the souls of men? I think it does. I believe Jesus heart was shattered on the cross because they rejected His pure and deep love.
    Love was crucified that day.
    So, I cannot imagine my God choosing indiscriminately to send someone to Hell because He can, there would have to be a reason, or He would not be impartial.

    AGAIN, DO WE KNOW GODS PURPOSES AND PLEASURES…NO. HOW CAN WE SAY WHAT GOD THINKS? HOW CAN WE MAKE GOD SO SMALL THAT WE DETERMINE WHY HE CREATES SOMEONE. I AM SPEAKING IN THE EXTREMITY OF THIS SUBJECT, BUT PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE LAST 200 YEARS HAVE TRIED TO MAKE GOD SMALLER SO THEY CAN BOX HIM UP TO WHAT THEY WANT HIM TO DO. GOD HAS HIS PURPOSES FOR ALL THINGS AND IT IS FOR HIS PLEASURE. SURE, HUMANLY THINKING WE CANNOT FATHOM GOD SENDING ANYONE TO HELL…BUT MANY WILL GO TO HELL…IT IS THAT SIMPLE. IT SEEMS UNLOVINGLY ON MY PART, BUT REALLY IT IS NOT. I LOVE PEOPLE, BUT I CANNOT LET MY EMOTIONS AND HUMAN THINKING GET IN THE WAY OF WHAT GOD IS REALLY DOING. I HAVE TO TRUST THAT GOD KNOWS BETTER THAN I AND HE HAS HIS PURPOSES FOR EVERYTHING.

    In the Old Testement God chose Abraham to head up a new nation…..Israel, through Jacob, was His chosen people, but God also allowed people from outside to come into the household of Israel, Rahab the harlot, and Ruth who became the great…however many it was… grandmother of Jesus!
    Is it only the ‘chosen’ that is saved in the N.T?
    Many are called……BUT ONLY A FEW ARE CHOSEN..MATTHEW 22:14. YOU HAVE MADE A GOOD CHOICE IN SCRIPTURE HERE. JESUS IS TELLING A STORY OF THE WEDDING AND SPEAKING OF THE INVITATION GOING OUT TO MANY, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN. EARLIER IN THIS SAME TEXT JESUS MENTIONS THE KING COMING IN AND NOTICED SOMEONE NOT THERE NOT WEARING THE WEEDDING CLOTHES. HE CALLED HIM “FRIEND” AND ASKED HOW HE GOT IN AND THE MAN WAS SPEECHLESS. SO THE KING HAD THE ATTENDANTS TIE HIM HAND AND FOOT AND THREW HIM INTO THE DARKNESS OF HELL. WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT…HOW COULD HE THROW THIS PERSON INTO HELL THAT MADE IT IN? HE WAS NOT CHOSEN! THIS IS A STORY OR EXAMPLE OF GOD AND US TO MAKE AN APPLICATION FOR US TODAY.

    Jesus said, ”He that comes to Me, I will in no wise cast out.”
    He that comes…..it would not be sense to say that, if everyone that came was chosen and had no choice in the matter…..

    ALL THOSE THAT GOD HAS GIVEN TO JESUS (HIS CHOSEN ONES OR ELECT) JESUS WILL NOT CAST OUT. IT IS TALKING ABOUT THE ELECT HERE AS WELL. START READING IN VERSE IN 35 TO GET THIS IN PROPER CONTEXT. IN VERSE 36 IT PUTS IT BEAUTIFULLY THAT SAYS “YOU HAVE SEEN ME AND STILL YOU DO NOT BELIEVE”. THEN GO FURTHER, “ALL THAT GOD GIVES TO ME (THE ELECT-CHOSEN) WILL COME TO ME AND I WILL NEVER DRIVE THEM AWAY.” OF COURSE HE WILL NOT DRIVE OR CAST OUT THE ELECT OF GOD. ALL THAT GOD GIVES TO HIM WILL BE SAVED…ALL OF THE CHOSEN OF GOD WILL BE SAVED.

    These are more thoughts on the matter which I find difficult to reconcile with a totally, absolute Sovereign God, Who’s hand cannot be turned, or His mind be changed, especially when it concerns someones salvation.

    This morning when I was reading and meditating and talking with the Lord about this, and thinking about His choosing Israel as a special people and how grace and truth came by Jesus Christ…..these words came to me….”Grace opened up the door….to come”………
    Israel was chosen and special…….Jesus came for them first…not for the Gentiles……..then He died……
    Now everyone could come…….
    Grace opened up the door for ALL…….

    AGAIN, IT IS NOT FOR “ALL” THAT YOU THINK “ALL” MEANS. GRACE ALLOWED THE GENTILES AS WELL AS JEWS TO BE SAVED BY HIS GRACE, BUT IT STILL DOES NOT NEGATE THAT THE GENTILES ARE CHOSEN AS WELL. THAT IS WHY THE CALL GOES OUT TO ALL (FIGURE OF SPEECH TO MEAN MANY IN THIS CASE)…THE INVITATION GOES OUT TO MANY (NOTICE IT DOES NOT SAY ALL), BUT ONLY A FEW ARE CHOSEN. HANG IN THERE, MAZ.

    It was a wonderful revelation within my spirit and which I really believe meant that…….Grace was the door for everyone to be able to come…..no more ’special’ people chosen as in the Old Testement,
    but a people chosen IN CHRIST. So that those who come to Jesus are the chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. And that is where His foreknowledge comes in.

    GOD STILL HAS A REMNANT, HIS CHOSEN ONES…IT IS NOT JUST JEWS, BUT GENTILES AS WELL. THIS IS OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT. IT IS NOT TO EVERYONE AND ANYONE, BECAUSE THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN. MAN LEFT TO THEMSELVES CANNOT AND WILL NOT CHOOSE TO COME TO GOD. UNLESS THE HOLY SPIRIT WORK AT REGENERATING THE HEART OF A PERSON THEY WILL NOT NOR CANNOT COME TO CHRIST. THEIR HEARTS WILL REMAIN CLOSED TO THE GOSPEL. IF THEY ARE NOT OF THE CHOSEN THAT EPHESIANS AND ROMANS SPEAK ABOUT THEY WILL NOT EVER BE REGERERATED…NEVER. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY HE HAS SET THIS UP THIS WAY…THIS IS FOR GOD TO KNOW AND WE ARE TO BE OBEDIENT TO HIS WORD AND CALLING.

    I could ramble on like this but maybe…hopefully, you can see what I am trying to say.

    I will continue to seek Gods heart in this.
    Maz

    I have been looking at both beliefs again and it seems even clearer to me, and in my heart, that if it is possible for someone to lose their salvation, as the scriptures appears to show in Hebrews, then it wasn’t fixed by Gods choice. The argument that they were not really born-again in the first place would negate the possibility of losing salvation…you can’t lose what you never had.

    CALVINISM DOES NOT TEACH NOR BELIEVE THAT ANYONE CAN LOOSE THEIR SALVATION. I DO NOT BELIEVE A TRUE BELIEVER IN CHRIST CAN BE LOST. THIS ALSO SPEAKS OF BOTH THE SECURITY OF OUR SALVATION AND THAT SOME ARE CHOSEN…JOHN 10:25-30 “I DID TELL YOU, BUT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE. THE MIRACLES I DO IN MY FATHERS NAME SPEAK FOR ME, BUT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP (WOW). MY SHEEP LISTEN TO MY VOICE, I KNOW THEM AND THEY FOLLOW ME. I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE AND THEY SHALL EVER PERISH. (HERE IT IS) NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. MY FATHER, WHO HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME, IS GREATER THAN ALL, NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY FATHER’S HAND, I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.”

    THIS IS POWERFUL STUFF RIGHT HERE…AWESOME AND POWERFUL! FIRST OF ALL MANY, SPECIFIC IN THIS SITUATION THE JEWISH LEADERS, WILL SEE HIM AND HEAR BUT NOT BELIEVE, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT HIS SHEEP, THEY ARE NOT HIS CHOSEN ONES GIVEN BY HIS FATHER.

    THOSE WHO ARE HIS SHEEP LISTEN TO HIM AND FOLLOW HIM AND NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM FROM HIM OR THE FATHER WHO ARE ONE. NO ONE WILL LOSE THEIR SALVATION. TEH DEVIL CANNOT PURSUADE THE TRUE BELEIVER. THOSE WHO ARE NOT TRUE BELIEVERS WILL FADE OUT AND NEVER BARE ANY FRUIT TO FURTHER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. THIS WAS NOT ONCE SAVED AND THEN LOST THEIR SALVATION…THAT IS HERESY….THEY NEVER KNEW GOD TO BEGIN WITH.

    The idea that some are chosen to go to Heaven and some are chosen to go to hell means that the ones chosen to go to Heaven had no choice but to go (which they obviously wouldn’t argue about) but where is the freedom to love God and accept Him as Savior?

    THIS IS VERY DEEP TO EXPLAIN AND I WILL DO LATER BECAUSE IT IS LATE AND I NEED TO TO GO. BUT I CAN TELL YOU YOUR PRECEPTION OF WHAT YOU THINK THE CALVINISM TEACH IS NOT CORRECT. I KNOW MANY THINK THIS WHAT THIS MEANS, BUT IT DOES NOT AT ALL. WE DO HAVE CHOICES AND FREEDOM, BUT IN THE SENSE YOU THINK THOSE WORDS MEAN.

    And the ones going to hell can do nothing to save themselves from going there, therefore have no free will to stop themselves.

    AGAIN, MISBELIEF IN THE MEANINGS OF CHOICE AND FREEDOM AND CHOSEN. WILL DEAL WITH IN GREATER DETAIL LATER IF I CAN. IT IS HARD TO ADDRESS THE LDS AND SKEPTICS AND THEN COME BACK HERE TO ADDRESS DOCTRINE…DIFFICULT TO KEEP THE TRAIN OF THOUGHT, BUT I AM TRYING.

    Either way, people get sent wherever God says without any choice for or against on the persons part. This, I truly believe, is not what my God wants or has ever wanted. Right from the beginning he has wanted man to choose to love Him, and I believe He still longs for people to freely choose to love Him and follow Him. He does not want robots with no will of their own. Isn’t it wonderful to have someone love you and choose to marry you,rather than for you to tell them, I want you, you will marry me and love me!
    Just some more deep thots to ponder.
    Maz.

    WE ARE NOT REBOTS…GOD HAS NOT CREATED ROBOTS. GOD CREATED EACH INDIVIDUAL WITH A PURPOSE IN MIND. IT IS THAT PURPOSE THAT WE CANNOT DICTATE…IT IS FOR GODS PLEASURE AS TO THAT PURPOSE. THE MARRIAGE ANALOGY IS A BIT THIN, BUT WHATEVER. IT COULD BE PUT BACK TO YOU THAT GOD INTENDS ONE TO GO TO THE OTHER AND SAY, “YOU WILL MARRY ME” AND THIS IS HOW INTENDS FOR THIS RELATIONSHIP TO BEGIN. AN OLDER COUPLE I READ ABOUT SOME MONTHS AGO GAVE THEIR TESTIMONY OF HOW THEY GOT MARRIED AND LIVED. THEIR PARENTS PUT THEM TOGETHER AND THEY REALLY DID NOT KNOW EACH OTHER WHEN THEY WERE MARRIED MUCH LESS LOVE EACH OTHER. HOWEVER, OVER THE COURSE OF 50 YEARS THEY GREW TO LOVE EACH OTHER IMMENSELT AND COULD NOT IMAGINE MARRYING ANYONE ELSE.

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST MY LORD,
    SCOTT

  13. Scott said

    Maz, this strand is getting long. We may have to move over to a new post and continue, but it is fine to stay the course here if you like.

    Please, study hard on this passage below in your bible:

    Romans 9:13-18

    “Just as it is written “Jacob I loved, and Essau I hated.’ What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore, God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom He wants to harden.”

    Then Romans 9:19-21

    “One of you will say to me, ‘then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will? But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?”

    Maz, you had asked several questions all lumped together that this passage in Romans deals with directly. How can God create some for heaven and other for hell? I do not question God on this, I just accept that He has His reasons and purposes and it is for His pleasure. We have been programed through years of misteaching in theology to believe that our God is only a God of love that cannot send anyone to hell nor would He ever if someone really wanted to go to heaven. Point being, if someone comes by faith and wants to accepts Christ honestly, then he will and enter heaven. However, these people that you present the gospel to that seem to have that glazed look in their eyes and never get it, these may just be people that never will get it nor want Christ…I cannot explain it, but it is for God’s purposes.

    What we desire for our families does not really matter in the scheme of things. It is all about our “Infinite” God. He knows all things without limit. So, how can we question Him about how He set things up from the beginning. God has His reasons and they are perfect reasons.

    Maz, you are searching for answers in your belief right now I can tell. I am not saying in your belief of Christ, but the theological beliefs. I, at one time, raised the same questions as you about how could God send someone to hell that wants to be saved? The fact is if they want to be saved they will be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 talks about God patiently waiting for more to repent. He is waiting for all the elect to come to Him in repentance. This will happen. Once all the chosen people have repented and come to Christ I believe He will take us from here immediately. Thankfully, God is not bound by time.

    This is all enough to make your head swim, but I am trying to put this out there in little bits and pieces for you to swallow. I have had to read, study, meditate, and pray on these very passages myself…the Lord gave me the wisdom to glean from them the truth found there. In time I believe your son will come to know Christ…it may take another 20 years, but it is all by God’s design not ours. However, if he never does, who are we to question God on why? God is still just and righteous no matter what.

    Pressing on in Christ,
    Scott

  14. Scott said

    Maz, the question or comment I read talking about “once saved always saved vs loosing our salvation” has always intrigued me. I never thought I would want anything to do with something so cheap that once my God gave me the salvation by His grace and mercy as a gift then He could take that gift away. I simply do not think we can loose that which God gives us. We may loose our car keys, but my salvation is secure.

    Here are a couple of passages to go with the ones in John I sent to you in a previous comment:

    Romans 8:28-39: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified….Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?…For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

    My Jesus would not let me get away. We are in the Fathers hand for good. This does not mean we do not wiggle around and try to squirm away, but we will not get away. His love is tremendous why would we ever want to.

    In Christ,
    Scott

  15. Scott said

    Hello Maz,

    I am addressing the comments on grace you had made in this brief comment section:

    Romans 10:2-8

    “God did not reject His people, those He foreknew. Don’t you know what the scripture says i the passage about Elijah-how he appealed to God against Israel, ‘Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they trying to kill me. And what was God’s answer to him? ‘I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Ba’al.’ So too, at the present time there is remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others wre hardened, as it is written: ‘god gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.'”

    God has His chosen people still, the remnant that He will use to keep the church going here until Christ return. Your sons are most likely a part of this remnant. God is patiently waiting on your one son to come to know Him and is not bothered by time as we are. So, take heart, Maz, God is still in control. Unknown to you or anyone else, the Lord could be working on your sons heart now and may soon turn Him around. We do not know this for sure, but we can certainly hope.

    Pressing on in Christ,
    Scott

  16. Maz said

    Scott: I know the passages in Romans because I have had many a discussion with Calvinists and they always bring this up. They speak of where God hardened Pharoahs heart but Pharoah had already hardened his heart. I really feel that if someone has a heart seeking for God and wants to know God, He will give them mercy. It just doesn’t seem merciful to refuse mercy to those who ask for it.
    I know that we cannot tell God how to do things, but it is my belief that He doesn’t do things just because he is Supreme and Sovereign and God, He has a heart. God is Love. He is motivated by Love, He sent His Son because He loved us so much He did not want us to perish. I truly believe His love is for the whole world and will only send someone to hell if that person continues to harden their heart against Him.
    God is also Holy and Just…..but being just means to give justice.

    THIS JUSTICE WAS SERVED ON THE CROSS!

    That means that He had every right to send us all to hell, that’s justice. But thro His grace and mercy He has made a way to take us all to Heaven, if we accept His grace and mercy and believe.

    WE WILL NOT ALL GO TO HEAVEN AS SCRIPTURE TEACHES. SOME ARE CREATED FOR DIFFERENT PURPOSES THAN OTHERS. YOU CANNOT LUMP EVERYTHING INTO THE LOVE CATAGORY. JUST BECAUSE GOD HARDENS SOMEONES HEART DOES NOT MEAN HE IS LESS GOD OR THAT HE LOVES PEOPLE ANY LESS. LOOK THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES TO FIND THE TIMES THAT GOD HAS STATED HE HATES SOMEONE. I WILL GIVE YOU THE FIRST ONE….ESSAU! IT STATES GOD LOVED JACOB AND HATED ESSAU…I DO NOT THINK THIS IS THE SAME HATE LIKE WE ON THIS EARTH HATE, BUT NONE THE LESS IT DID NOT SAY HE LOVED ESSAU.

    To be the Just God that He is, He has to treat people the same

    NO HE DOES NOT!

    ….those who are continually wicked go to Hell and those who choose to believe and follow Him go to Heaven.

    CORRECT, BUT YOU TAKE OUT THE FACTOR OF THE ELECT AND YOU CANNOT DO THAT BIBLICALLY.

    You cannot be just and be indiscriminate. He cannot go against His own person and character. He cannot break His law of mercy and grace.

    HIS LAW OF MERCY AND GRACE? HE HAS HIS PERFECT DESIRE, BUT HE ALLOWS PEOPLE TO SIN. HE USES THIS SIN FOR HIS PURPOSES. HE HATES SIN, BUT YET HE ALLOWS IT. IS THAT GOING AGAINST HIS LAW?

    This may sound like dictating to God, but He has set His own boundaries….He cannot lie, He cannot sin….there are things that God cannot do….do you understand what I mean?

    I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN, BUT YOU DO NOT TAKE IT FAR ENOUGH. HE CANNOT LIE OR SIN, BUT HE ALLOWS IT FOR HIS PURPOSES. HE ALLOWED SIN TO ENTER THIS WORLD, BUT HE DOES NOT LIKE IT NOR CAN HE LOOK UPON SIN, YET WE HAVE SIN.

    Yesterday I was talking to the Lord and telling Him how I really wanted to know Him, and what He is really like. These words came back to me…”If you want to know what I am like, look at my Son.”

    YES, BUT DO NOT NEGATE THE WORDS OF CHRIST CONCERNING THESE THINGS PERTAINING TO SALVATION. HE WAS NOT A WEAL WIMPY CHRIST. HE WAS VERY FIRM WHE IT CAME TO THIS DOCTRINE. GOD HAS GIVEN HIM CERTAIN PEOPLE AND HE WILL NOT REJECT ANY OF THEM.

    And what I see in Jesus is the grace and mercy I spoke of earlier.

    YOU KEEP PUTTING GOD IN A LITTLE BOX OF MERCY AND GRACE….GOD IS FAR MORE THAN MERCY AND GRACE. HE IS JUDGE, RULER, KING, SUPREME, ALL KNOWING, SOVEREIGN, LORD, AND MUCH MORE!

    His encounter with the rich young ruler….He answered the young mans question about eternal life and challenged him about his riches. Why? If this man had been willing to give up his riches would God have given him eternal life? But he was not willing…..does that mean that he was not chosen for eternal life by God? Then why did Jesus challenge him?

    HOW DO WE KNOW HE DID NOT LATER COME TO CHRIST? THIS DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR THEORY AT ALL. CHRIST KNEW THIS MAN WAS RICH AND WOULD NOT GIVE UP HIS RICHES BEFORE HE EVER MET HIM. HE CHALLENGED HIM BECAUSE HE WAS ANSWERING THE YOUNG MAN. A ONE TIME ENCOUNTER DOES NOT MEAN THAT SOMEONE WILL CONTINUALLY REJECT CHRIST. IT MAY TAKE SEVERAL TIMES BEFORE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS AT WORK IN SOMEONE. JUST BECAUSE WE PRESENT THE GOSPEL AND A PERSON REJECTS CHRIST HAS NO BEARING ON GOD. IT WAS NOT HIS TIME OR MAY NEVER BE HIS TIME.
    Am I trying to reason too much here? YES!

    Actually that brings me to a scripture in the OT….”Come let us reason together saith the Lord…” Here God wanted Israel to reason with Him.

    I WILL HAVE TO GO TO THE TEXT. I HAVE A LUNCH APPOINTMENT TO GO TO.

    Just a thot.

    I have more but I must stop for dinner.
    Maz

    MAZ, I AM GOING TO LEAVE YOU TO YOUR BELIEF’S. YOU ARE NOT SEEING THIS RIGHT NOW…AS GOD’S WORD HAS BEEN PRESENTED YET YOU IGNORE IT TO MOVE TO WHAT YOU “BELIEVE”. THE SCRIPTURE IS SO CLEAR ON THIS. I WOULD NOT BELIEVE IN THIS DOCTRINE IF THE SCRIPTURE WAS NOT SO CLEAR ABOUT AND BY COMMENTING WITH YOU I AM EVEN MORE CONVINCED BY THE NEW SCRIPTURES I HAVE FOUND.

    BY THE WAY PAHRAOH’S HEART WAS NOT HARDENED UNTIL GOD HARDENED IT. I SEE THIS ALL THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE. JESUS WAS VERY CLEAR ON THIS AS WELL. HE SPOKE ABOUT TO ROADS…THE NARROW AND THE WIDE. THAT IS IT. THIS BROAD ROAD APPROACH TO SALVATION IS NOT SCRIPTURAL ANYWHERE. NONE THE LESS….YOU CONTINUE ON HOW YOU ARE GOING. PLEASE, USE COMPLETE TEXT IN CONTEXT, NOT BITS AND PIECES OF VERSES…THIS IS HOW WE GET IN TROUBLE WITH OUR BELIEFS. ALL WE ARE DOING IS GOING IN CIRCLES RIGHT NOW.

    MAY THE LORD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. I DO HOPE THAT YOUR UNSAVED SON GIVES HIS HEART AND LIFE TO CHRIST IN YOUR LIFETIME.

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  17. Maz said

    Just read Romans 3 v 21-31. Talking about God..”that He might be just and the justifier of him who believes in Jesus.” v26.

    WHAT IS YOUR POINT ON THIS ONE?

  18. Maz said

    Scott: You said earlier that ”those who want to be saved will be saved.” That is my point.

    DON’T MISUNDERSTAND MY WORDS. THOSE WHO WANT TO BE SAVED BECAUSE OF THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE FACT THEY HAVE BEEN CHOSEN WILL BE SAVED…GOD PLACES THAT DESIRE IN THEIR HEARTS AND THEN THEY RECEIVE IN DUE TIME. I FIGURED YOU WOULD TAKE THAT DIFFERENTLY:-)

    Those who want and will to come to Jesus and believe will be saved, it’s not random choice only on Gods part, it is also mans desire and will.

    I DISAGREE TOTALLY. IT IS GOD’S WILL AND GOD’S CHOICE NOT MAN’S AS WE THINK OF CHOICE. YES, MAN CHOOSES, BUT FROM HIS OWN SINFUL HEART WITHOUT BEING CHOSEN.

    Didn’t God create Adam with free will because He wanted man to love Him freely and choose to walk His ways.

    UH, WHERE DO YOU GET THAT ADAM WAS CREATED WITH A FREE WILL? GOD CREATED THEN PERFECTLY AND SINLESS AND A PERFECT GARDEN…YET HE ALLOWED SIN TO ENTER IN. THIS SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HIS FREE WILL.

    He did not want robots, as we both agree, but He doesn’t want puppets either just doing ”Gods good pleasure” without some will on mans part to WANT to do it ….surely God still wants man to have a free will to choose Jesus and follow Him?

    AGAIN, MAN WANTS TO KEEP THAT LITTLE BIT TO BOAST ABOUT DOESN’T HE? MAN WANTS TO BE SURE THAT SOME OF THAT SALVATION WAS HIM ALONE SO HE CAN PUFF OUT HIS CHEST A LITTLE AND LET EVERYONE KNOW WHAT HE DID. GOD WOULD NOT ALLOW THIS FROM BEFORE CREATION UNTIL NOW.

    And, not every ‘arranged’ marriage works Scott. it’s great when it does…but then even a marriage that began with love doesn’t always work out either. I should know.

    Eternal Security. Yes, I’d like to think that now I’m saved I could never lose what I have in Christ no matter what I did. But what about Hebrews 10 v 29?

    THE THREE INDICMENTS MENTIONED HERE ARE THE DESCRIBING THE ENORMITY OF THE SIN OF UNBELIEF…THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LOOSING YOUR SALVATION….THIS PERSON NEVER HAD IT TO BEGAN. START AT VERSE 26 AND GO TO VERSE 31…THIS PUTS IT INTO CONTEXT. THIS IS WHAT I MENTIONED BEFORE WHEN YOU TAKE ONE VERSE IT CAN SEEM LIKE IT MEANS SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAN THE AUTHOR INTENDED 🙂

    My sister was a believer once….she was saved about the same time I came to the Lord. She had a real convertion…

    HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE WAS CONVERTED? COULD YOU SEE IN HER HEART?

    …we use to share things about the Lord in our letters, because she lived in South Africa at the time. But now in the last few years she has drifted into New Age thinking and phylosophies. She once had burnt all her astrology books, expensive books her husband had bought her, when she came to Christ, but now she reads magazines on astrology. She reads lots of books about phylosophy and religions and beliefs etc.
    She has even read the book on the De Vinci code.
    When I went out to Australia, where she now lives, to visit her for the first time, I found I could not talk to her about spiritual things because somehow her beliefs had completely changed. She says she is a Christian, still, but she does not go to Church, pray to the Lord (she prays to the Universe!) or read her Bible. She beieves in Karma, wore a crystal round her neck when she was having choemo for cancer, and lots of other New Age things like this are in her life, yet she still believes she is a CHristian.
    Has she fallen away, has she trodden under foot the blood of the Son of God?…I don’t know…I hope she still has a chance to return fully to the faith she once professed. her daughter has gone the same way,she goes to psychic regularly and she has a large picture of Buddha on her wall. My sister has an older daughter from her first marriage though, and she is a true Christian. She has had to stop mentioning anything Christian to her mum because she says they usually end up in an argument.

    OK, TWO THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. AS YOU MENTIONED IT IS VERY POSSIBLE SHE HAS DRIFTED AWAY FROM HER RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD, BUT IS STILL A BELIEVER. SHE WOULD NOT BE THE FIRST TO DO THIS…I TOO HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT…NOT INTO ASTROLOGY OR NEW AGE, BUT JUST LIVING THE WORLDS WAY. HOWEVER, I NEVER LOST MY SAVIOR. HE WAS STILL THERE WITH ME ALL THE WAY THROUGH. I WAS LIVING IN GUILT ALL THAT TIME, BUT KEPT ON GOING MY WAY UNTIL FINALLY THE LORD THROUGH DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES BROUGHT ME BACK INTO A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.

    THE SECOND POSSIBILITY IS WHAT I WOULD LEAN TOWARDS BUT I CANNOT SAY…THAT IS BETWEEN YOUR SISTER AND CHRIST. I SUSPECT SHE MAY HAVE BEEN SWEPT UP IN THE EMOTIONS OF CHRISTIANITY, JUST LIKE SHE IS NOW SWEPT AWAY BY NEW AGE, ASTROLOGY, ETC. PEOPLE CAN GET SWEPT UP INTO EMOTIONAL HIGHS IN CHRISTIANITY LIKE ANYTHING ELSE…I SUSPECT THIS IS THE CASE. HOWEVER, IF SHE IS A TRUE BELIEVER I THINK BEFORE HER TIME ON EARTH IS FINISHED SHE WILL RETURN TO THAT RIGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST OR HE WILL REMOVE HER FROM THIS EARTH. ONE OF THE TWO POSSIBILITIES ARE POSSIBLE:-)

    I have known quite a few peope who have come to my Church, gone through baptism, testified of their faith in Christ and then have gone right back and denied Him. How can this be Scott? If it is not possible?

    THEY WERE NOT SAVED…THEY DID NOT KNOW CHRIST…IT IS THAT SIMPLE. I HAVE SEEN THAT TOO IN MY OLD CHURCH. I HAVE SEEN COUNTLESS PEOPLE WHO WHEN A FAMILY MEMBER DIED OUR PASTOR THOUGHT THAT WAS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO GET THESE PEOPLE SAVED. SO, HE WOULD PRESENT THE GOSPEL TO THEM AND THEN PRESS THEM TO ACCEPT CHRIST. MANY DID JUST TO GET RID OF HIM I NOW UNDERSTAND AND THEY CAME FORWARD AND WENT THROUGH THE BAPTISMAL WATERS AND HAVE NEVER SET FOOT INSIDE THE CHURCH AGAIN AND THAT HAS BEEN 20 YEARS OR SO. MATTHEW 7:20-23 SAYS “THUS, BY THEIR FRUIT YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THEM. NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, LORD, LORD, WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, BUT ONLY THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN. MANY WILL SAY TO ME ON THAT DAY, LORD, LORD, DID WE NOT PROPHECY IN YOUR NAME AND IN YOUR NAME DRIVE OUT DEMONS AND PERFORM MANY MIRALES? THEN I (JESUS) WILL TELL THEM PLAINLY, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU. AWAY FROM ME YOU EVILDOERS!'” NOW, TWO THINGS COME TO MIND HERE. NOT EVERYONE THAT DOES MINISTRY IN GOD’S NAME ARE SAVED. SECONDLY, DO YOU THINK THESE PEOPLE WANTED TO BE SAVED OR POSSIBLY THOUGHT THEY WERE SAVED, BUT JESUS DID NOT KNOW THEM…THEY WERE NOT OF THE ELECT OR CHOSEN. THEY CAN DO THINGS IN GOD’S NAME ALL DAY LONG, BUT IF THEY ARE NOT CHOSEN THEY WILL NOT GET IN….IT IS THAT SIMPLE:-)

    What about the ‘falling away’ in the last days?

    THIS WILL BE ALL THOSE IN THE CHURCH THAT PROFESS CHRIST, BUT REALLY ARE NOT OF CHRIST. TIMES WILL GET TOO TOUGH FOR THEM AND THEY WILL SIMPLY FALL AWAY.

    End of section 2! Bare with me brother…I have to get the truth somehow on all this. I do not believe God wants us to blindly go on without some kind of ‘knowing’ what His will is for this world.
    Be back soon.
    Maz

    YES, FAITH IS TRUSTING THAT WHICH IS NOT SEEN AND MOVING FORWARD. I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE THEOLOGY THAT SOME ARE CHOSEN AND OTHERS ARE NOT, IS NOT SOMETHING WE GO AROUND THINKING ABOUT ALL THE TIME. TO BE EFFECTIVE IN OUR WITNESS WE CANNOT LOOK AT EACH PERSON LIKE THAT. THIS THEOLOGY IS THE UNDERLYING POSSIBILITY, BUT THE OUTWARD WAY WE TREAT PEOPLE. WE ARE STILL COMMISSIONED TO SHARE THE GOSPEL WITH ALL, BECAUSE WE DO NOT KNOW WHO IS CHOSEN AND WHO IS NOT. GOD DOES, AND HE CHOOSES TO USE US TO BRING ABOUT HIS REMNANT IN THESE DAYS. HE CAN USE SOMEONE, SOMETHING OR AN OPEN BIBLE ON THE SIDEWALK….IT IS HIS CHOICE.

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT:-)

  19. Maz said

    Have you given up on me Scott? NO, BUT CLOSE:-)

    I DON’T HAVE TIME TO GO IN CIRCLES. I HAVE 10 KIDS, MY WIFE, BUSINESS AND I MENTOR SEVERAL OTHER DADS IN THEIR WALK AS WELL, THEN I SERVE AT CHURCH AS WELL AND THIS TAKES UP A GREAT DEAL OF TIME. I WILL CHECK IN ON YOUR COMMENTS FROM TIME TO TIME AND HOPEFULLY SOME OTHER CALVINIST THINKING BLOGGERS CAN JUMP IN AND ASSIST YOU AS WELL. STAY IN THERE MAZ…AS I HAVE TIME I WILL COMMENT.

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  20. Maz said

    I am not ignoring scriptures you give me Scott, but neither can I ignore scriptures that appear to contradict Calvinist belief:
    1 Tim: 2 v 4-6.

    THIS IS SPEAKING PRIMARILY TO THE INSTRUCTIONS CONCERNING WORSHIP. BUT THESE VERSES IN PARTICULAR….I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT IT IS NOT GOD’S DESIRE FOR ALL MEN TO BE SAVED…HOWEVER, “WHO WANTS” IS AN EXPRESSION OF GOD’S WISH, BUT NOT HIS DECREE. ALL MEN WILL NOT BE SAVED. HE HAS NOT CHOSEN ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, BUT WISHES THAT ALL MEN WOULD BE, BUT THEY WILL NOT BE. I KNOW THAT SOUNDS CONTRADICTORY, BUT IT IS NOT.

    1 Tim: 4 v 10.

    CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN AS HE DIED ON THE CROSS FOR ALL MEN, BUT LIKE THE VERSE STATES, “ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE” THOSE WHO BELIEVE ARE THE CHOSEN ONES WHO WILL BELIEVE. HE WAS ESPECIALLY THE SAVIOR FOR THOSE…HIS MERCY IS ON THOSE.

    1 John 2 v 2.

    HE IS THE ATONING SACRIFICE FOR ALL OF MAN’S SIN…NOT ONLY FOR THE CHOSEN, BUT FOR EVERYONE. THIS DOES NOT CONTRADICT OUR THEOLOGY AT ALL. THIS IS JUST SAYING THAT CHRIST DIED FOR ALL NOT JUST THE ELECT. THIS DOES NOT SAY THAT OTHERS BESIDES THE ELECT WILL BE SAVED OR THAT GOD DOES NOT HAVE A CHOSEN PEOPLE….FAR FROM IT. THIS IS A STATEMENT ABOUT THE WORK ON THE CROSS. THIS IS THE ONLY SACRIFICE THAT SATISFIED GOD, SO THAT THE ELECT WOULD BE SAVED.

    1 Jhn 4 v 14.

    JESUS IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD….AGAIN, THIS IS NOT CONTRADICTORY TOWARDS CALVINISTIC THEOLOGY. WE DO NOT DENY JESUS IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. THE WORLD WILL NOT BE SAVED….ONLY THE CHOSEN OR ELECT WILL BE SAVED. THIS IS NOT POINTING TO A DIFFERENT THEOLOGY AT ALL.

    John 12 v 32.

    THIS IS NOT SAYING “ALL” PEOPLE OF THE WORLD. THIS IS ONE OF THOSE CASES I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THAT YOU CANNOT TRANSLATE THE WORD “ALL” TO LITERALLY MEAN EVERY HUMAN BEING ON THE EARTH. THIS WAS SIMPLY STATING THAT NOW NOT ONLY THE JEWS CAN COME TO GOD BUT ALSO THE GREEKS. HIS ELECT IS STILL IN TACT IN THESE VERSES. NOTHING CONTRADICTING OUR THEOLOGY HERE AT ALL.

    Romans 5 v 17,18.

    AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE…CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS FOR “ALL” MANKIND…THIS WAS THE JUSTIFICATION FOR ALL. HOWEVER, GOD STILL HAS HIS REMNANT THAT WILL BE SHOWN MERCY BY HIS SAVING GRACE. THIS JUSTIFICATION HAD TO BE IN ORDER FOR NOT ONE SOUL TO DIE AND CAN SAY THEY WERE UNJUSTLY SENT TO HELL. FAR BE IT FROM THE TRUTH…GOD WILL SAY THAT CHRIST DIED FOR THEM, BUT THEY REJECTED HIM…JESUS NEVER KNEW THEM. THEY WERE JUSTIFIED BY THE WORK ON THE CROSS, BUT ONLY ELECT PARTAKE IN MERCY AND GRACE.

    Romans 10v 12,13.

    TAKE THAT FURTHER TO 14 AND 15 TO KEEP IN CONTEXT AS IT IS SPEAKING OF THE GOD’S ELECTION IS OF HIS OWN FREE WILL NOT MAN’S FREE WILL. THE “EVERYONE” IT IS SPEAKING OF HERE IS THE ELECT. IT DOES NOT MEAN JUST RANDOM PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOT BEEN CHOSEN. THIS WOULD NOT BE CONSISTANT WITH GOD’S WORD. IF WE WERE TO TAKE THE USE OF THE WORD “ALL” TO MEAN THAT EVERYTIME, THEN EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH CAN CLAIM A RIGHT TO SALVATION AND WILL BE SAVED REGARDLESS. YOU CANNOT READ INTO THIS WHAT IS NOT THERE.

    2 Peter 3 v 9.

    I ADDRESSED THIS EARLIER. THIS IS NOT SAYING HE IS WAITING FOR EVERYONE LAST PERSON TO COME TO CHRIST….HE IS WAITING ON THE ELECT TO MAKE THIS DECISION. FOR SOME THEY COME IMMEDIATELY AT THE FIRST CALLING AND FOR OTHERS IT COULD BE THE 5TH TIME THE GOSPEL IS PRESENTED TO THEM THAT THEY ARE SAVED. BUT GOD IS NOT BOUND BY TIME AND SO HE WAITS FOR ALL TO BE SAVED THAT WILL BE SAVED FROM THOSE HE HAS CHOSEN FROM BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

    Acts 17 v 30.

    HERE AGAIN WE HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH THIS VERSE OR THE ONES BEFORE OR AFTER IT. JUST BECAUSE GOD COMMANDS ALL TO REPENT DOES NOT MEAN ALL WILL REPENT. THIS IS IN LINE WITH HIS WILL THAT ALL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO COME, BUT ONLY THE CHOSEN WILL HEAR THE CALL AND REACT TO IT. THOSE WHO ARE NOT SAVED IN THE LAST DAYS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO COME BEFORE GOD AND TELL HIM THAT HE NEVER OFFERED…HE HERE HAS COMMANDED THEM TO REPENT YET MOST OF THEIR HEARTS ARE HARD AND THEY WILL NOT REPENT…THOSE OF THE ELECT IN THIS GROUP WILL REPENT AND BE SAVED. I LOVE THIS VERSE.

    Romans 2 (esp v 4-11).

    GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM BETWEEN THE JEWS OR THE GENTILES…IF THEY INSIST ON REJECTING GOD HSI WRATH WILL FOLLOW. THIS IS REALLY ADDRESSING THE MORALIST OF THE DAY LIKE THE JEWS WHO REALLY THOUGHT THEY DID NOT NEED CHRIST AND HAD IT ALL FIGURED OUT. IN VERSE 5 OF MY 1599 GENEVA BIBLE VERSION IT STATES THAT THEIR HEARTS ARE HARDENED AND THEY CANNOT REPENT AND HAVE HEAPED UPON THEM THE WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD. THIS VERSION WAS BEFORE THE KJV. THE JEWS THOUGHT THEY WERE DOING EVERY RIGHT FOR GOD, BUT GOD SAYS THEY WILL FIND A TREASURE OF WRATH NOT GRACE. I DO NOT SEE ANYTHING HERE THAT WOULD CONTRADICT THE CALVINISTIC THEOLOGY. MAYBE I AM MISSING SOMETHING.

    John 5 v 39-47

    NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE GOING WITH THIS ONE. THIS IS JESUS SPEAKING TO THE JEWS AND THEIR UNBELIEF IN HIM. I MEAN THEY DID NOT BELIEVE JOHN EITHER THAT CAME BEFORE TO TESTIFY OF CHRIST. THE PHARISEES WERE ALWAYS STUDYING THE SCRIPTURES THINKING THAT ALONE WOULD GET THEM SOMEWHERE…JESUS SETS THEM STRAIGHT ABOUT THIS.

    Maz

    MY HEAD HURTS NOW FROM GOING THROUGH ALL THAT, BUT THAT IS GOOD EXERCISE FOR MY MIND. THOSE ARE GREAT TEXT, BUT THEY DO NOT CONTRADICT THE TEACHING OF JESUS, PAUL, JOHN CALVIN, MARTIN LUTHER, SPURGEON, JONATHON EDWARDS, JOHN KNOX, THOMAS BOSTON, THOMAS WATSON, JOHN PIPER, JOHN MACARTHUR, CHUCK SWINDOLL (MY PASTOR), APOSTLE JOHN, PETER, LUKE, MATTHEW, JAMES, THE OLD TESTAMENT, AUGUSTINE, JOHN STOTT, DR. MARTIN LLOYD JONES, FRANCIS SHAUFFER, STEVE FARRAR, R.C. SPROUL, AND SO MANY OTHERS. THESE ARE THE GUYS I STUDY OFTEN ALONG WITH THE SCRIPTURES. I STUDY FROM THE GENEVA BIBLE, KJV (DAKE’S ANNOTATED), NIV, NAS, NLIV VERSIONS, PLUS USE MATTHEW HENRYS COMMENTARIES, SPURGEON SERMONS STUDIES, AND A COLLECTION OF OTHER REFERENCES. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS MY DISCERNING CAUSE TO BELIEVE WHAT I BELEIVE FROM THE WORD OF GOD.

    THANKS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPOUND.

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  21. Maz said

    Scott: Just a note about Adam and freewill. Did Adam freely choose to disobey God by taking the fruit from Eve and eating it? I don’t understand how you can say he didn’t have free will, both Adam and Eve chose to sin? Is that right or wrong?

    OK, WHENEVER I HEAR SOMEONE WHO REJECTS THE CALVINISTIC DOCTRINE SAY “FREEWILL” IT TAKES ME TO THINKING THAT THIS PERSON CAN REJECT OR ACCEPT WITHOUT ANY INTERVENTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. YES, ADAM AND EVE CHOSE TO SIN, GOD ALLOWED IT…HE SENT LUCIFER TO THE EARTH TO BE THE LORD OF THE EARTH. THEY DISOBEYED GOD’S DIRECT COMMAND NOT TO EAT OF THAT PARTICULAR TREE. THIS WAS ALL IN GOD’S DIRECT PREDESTINED PLAN. GOD DID NOT CAUSE THE SIN, YET HE PLACED THE TREE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GARDEN FOR THAT OPPORTUNITY, YET, HE DID NOT DIRECT THEM TO SIN, BUT HE ALLOWED THEM THAT FREEDOM TO SIN. WITHOUT GOD’S PLAN AT WORK, THE TREE WOULD NOT EVEN BE AN ISSUE. I SEE FREE WILL DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU SEE OR USE FREE WILL. FREE WILL IS DESIGNED FOR GOD NOT MAN. YET, IN HIS FREEDOM HE ALLOWS MAN TO SIN. HE PLACES EACH OF US IN DIFFERENT EVENTS THAT COULD END UP IN A SINFUL ACTION. DOES HE DESIRE THAT WE SIN…NO….DOES HE ALLOW IT…YES. NOT SURE WHAT ELSE TO SAY ABOUT THIS…..THROUGH ADAM AND EVE SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, HE DID NO CAUSE OR ORDAIN THAT SIN…DOES NOT STATE ANYTHING ABOUT THEM NOT BEING CHOSEN. ADAM AND EVE WERE CHOSEN IN THE GREATEST USE OF THE WORD CHOSEN. THROUGH THEM OUR SAVIOR CAME TO US MANY YEARS LATER TO REDEEM HIS CHOSEN ONES FROM THAT FIRST SIN. THAT IS ALL I HAVE ON THIS.

    BY THE WAY…CALVINIST NEVER SAID MAN DOES NOT HAVE A FREE WILL TO SIN-THEY CERTIANLY DO APPARENTLY…IT IS THAT MAN CANNOT OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL COME TO CHRIST. THIS IS COMMONLY MISTAKEN AS THE VIEW.

    “God is not responsible for the evil that is accomplished by the free will actions of fallen people. Remember, free will is the ability to make choices and unbelievers make choices consistent with their fallen natures. They openly choose to accomplish evil deeds in contradiction to God’s Word. They are openly and freely rebelling against God. God did not make them sinful. He did not make them rebellious. therefore, God is not responsible for the evil they accomplish.” -MATTHEW S.

    “God made Adam who was good. Adam was not bound by its sinful nature and freely chose to rebel against God. Because of his rebellion, he fell. His body was physically affected by sin. Likewise, his children inherited the sinful nature and depravity of mind, soul, art, body, motions, etc. and are under the proclaimed revelation of God concerning their fallen state. Nevertheless, God made Adam good and Adam chose to rebel. We inherited the sinful nature and the unbeliever, the unregenerate can only act in accordance with his own fall in nature. In other words, he cannot choose to freely follow God because that is a good thing to do. Since he is a slave of sin, does not seek for God and does not understand spiritual things, he is not able to freely choose God.” – MATTHEW S.

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  22. Scott said

    Maz, I wanted to make sure you got the last quote I put in the comment section above.

    “God is not responsible for the evil that is accomplished by the free will actions of fallen people. Remember, free will is the ability to make choices and unbelievers make choices consistent with their fallen natures. They openly choose to accomplish evil deeds in contradiction to God’s Word. They are openly and freely rebelling against God. God did not make them sinful. He did not make them rebellious. therefore, God is not responsible for the they accomplish.”
    “God made Adam who was good. Adam was not bound by its sinful nature and freely chose to rebel against God. Because of his rebellion, he fell. His body was physically affected by sin. Likewise, his children inherited the sinful nature and depravity of mind, soul, art, body, motions, etc. and are under the proclaimed revelation of God concerning their fallen state. Nevertheless, God made Adam good and Adam chose to rebel. We inherited the sinful nature and the unbeliever, the unregenerate can only act in accordance with his own fall in nature. In other words, he cannot choose to freely follow God because that is a good thing to do. Since he is a slave of sin, does not seek for God and does not understand spiritual things, he is not able to freely choose God.” -Matthew S.

    Scott

  23. Maz said

    Scott: I fully agree with all that! Can you hear a but coming…? I have a question though; Did Adam and Eve come to know good and evil as the devil said they would if they ate of the tree? They obviously had a conscience, they knew they had sinned, therefore they knew what was right to do….if then you know what is right and wrong can you not seek Gods help so that you do the right thing….didn’t Able do right? Cain did not. Something of the knowledge of what is sin and what is good must have passed down from Adam to his children.

    DID ADAM AND EVE START SEEKING GOD ONCE THEY ATE OF THAT TREE TO TELL THEM WHAT THEY DID AND DO THE RIGHT THING? DID GOD AS HE WAS WALKING THROUGH THE WOODS CALLING FOR THEM (HE KNEW WHERE THEY WERE) FIND THEM RUNNING TOWARDS HIM? I BELIEVE THEY WERE HIDING IN SHAME AND WOULD NOT HAVE SEEKED OUT GOD AS THEY WERE NOT DOING…THE GOOD, IN MY OPINION, HAD GONE FROM THEM THAT WAS PURE BEFORE THEY GAVE IN TO SIN. THAT ONE SIN DESTROYED EVERYTHING THAT WAS GOOD IN THEM AT THAT MOMENT. TOTAL DEPRAVITY OF MAN TAKES OVER EVERYTHING, EVERY WORD, OUR HEALTH, OUR SPIRIT, EVERYTHING…IT ALL STARTED RIGHT THERE WITH ADAM. THE REST OF YOUR QUESTION I WILL LEAVE FOR YOU TO FIGURE OUT.

    OK we do not have the POWER within to change, but do we have the knowledge of sin and the knowledge of good built within our conscience to atleast choose to seek Gods help in the matter?
    Boy..I do find them don’t I?

    Scott, I want you to know that, with all my heart I WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.
    Before I became a Christian I could have got involved with the J.W’s. I could have got involved with the Mormons..etc…etc…but I believe God saved me from error and led me eventually to the truth. Now I believe God leads and draws people….I still believe that it is up to them once drawn to respond.
    Anyway….when I became a Christian I still believed in evolution. Indoctrinated at school I knew nothing else and believed all that the scientists taught us.
    Even in the Church some tell us that God used evolution. I believed it…until God showed me otherwise. I now believe in Genesis as a literal history of Gods creation in 6 days.
    I believe that as Jesus said in John 16 v 13, ”..when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak of Himself but whatever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come.”
    I believe that this is a promise to all who believe in Jesus, He will guide us into all truth and lead us, and he will keep us from error. So if Calvinism is true, He will, by His Spirit, lead me into it, but if it is not, then I trust He will reveal this to me too.

    CALVINISM IS NOT LIKE A CULT OR ANOTHER RELIGION. IT IS SIMPLY A NICKNAME FOR THE DOCTRINE WE FIND IN SCRIPTURE THAT WE BELIEVE PAUL TAUGHT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE EVER HAS. JOHN CALVIN GOT COINED WITH IT BECAUSE OF THE SYNOD OF DORT RESULTS. IF THAT SYNOD HAD NOT BEEN CALLED YOU WOULD NOT HAVE ANY DOCTRINE CALL CALVINISM…IT WOULD SIMPLY BE DOCTRINE…WHICH IS HOW I SEE IT. JOHN CALVIN WAS AS HUMAN AS YOU AND I, SO I DO NOT PLACE ANY CREDIT TO HIM FOR THIS AT ALL OTHER THAN HE PREACHED AND TAUGHT THIS AS MANY BEFORE HIM DID. SO, IT IS NOT ABOUT CALVINISM BEING TRUE…IT IS THE TRUTH OF THE SCRIPTURES. YOU CANNOT DENY THE TEXT SPEAKING OF GOD’S ELECT OR THE SCRIPTURES THAT SPEAK ABOUT NO ONE COMING TO FATHER BUT THROUGH JESUS….OR THAT NONE CAN COME TO HIM UNLESS THEY ARE GIVEN TO HIM BY THE FATHER. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO TIE IN THE ARMENIAN SCRIPTURAL ARGUEMENTS TO THIS SAME DOCTRINE, BUT NEVER COULD FROM THE OTHER DIRECTION….I HAD TO LEAVE OUT TOO MUCH SCRIPTURE AND SIMPLY IGNORE LARGE PORTIONS OF IT TO MAKE IT FIT THE ARMENIAN VIEW. THAT CHANGED ME ENTIRELY.

    Scott, I ask the questions to find that truth.
    All I see in the scripture is ”Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ…and you shall be saved.” Believe….be saved. And yes I believe it is from the point where the Spirit draws us…because I believe that is how I came to know Him.
    Again the words come to me, many are called but few are chosen. Who are the called? ”….according to His purpose”. Romans 8 v 28.

    YOU CONTINUE TO USE THIS VERSE AND IT CLEARLY SUPPORTS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU. YES, THE GOSPEL GOES OUT TO MANY (NOT ALL), YET GOD HAS ONLY CHOSEN A FEW. WHO ARE THE CALLED? ONLY GOD KNOWS THAT….ANYONE THAT WE SEE IN HEAVEN SOMEDAY ARE THE CHOSEN! YES, IT IS ALL ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSES! IN THE END OF IT ALL, WE AS HUMANS DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO 100% KNOW WHO IS SAVED AND WHO IS NOT….THAT IS THE MOST PERSONAL THING WE HAVE BETWEEN US AND GOD. WE CAN ASSUME BY THE FRUIT IF SOMEONE IS SAVED OR NOT, BUT WE ARE NOT 100% CONCLUSIVE EVEN BY THAT.

    And forgive me for asking one more question here…
    not to get into any other doctrinal discussion but just to know where you are coming from….Do you believe in Replacement Theology? That the Church has replaced Israel?

    I HAVE NOT EVEN GOTTEN INTO THAT…I DO NOT KNOW AT THIS POINT. I WILL HAVE TO RESEARCH WHAT YOU ARE EVEN REFERRING TO BY “REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY” AND IF THE CHURCH REPLACED ISRAEL.

    This is another debate and I will not get involved in that here and now. Just want to know.
    Thanks Scott for your patience….especially with all those children you have! Boy, you and your wife certainly have your hands full. Two was enough for me!
    In Jesus, Maz

    MAZ, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN DOWN A TRAIL JUST TO GET TO WHERE YOU ARE. I AM THANKFUL YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR LIFE TO CHRIST. THE ISSUES BETWEEN “CALVINISM VS OTHER DOCTRINES” HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS AND WILL NOT STOP HERE. IF I COULD NOT SUPPORT MY BELIEFS SO WELL WITH GOD’S WORD I WOULD NOT THINK THIS WAY. SOME CALVINIST TAKE IT TOO FAR AND BECOME HEARTLESS AND ARROGANT, THAT I WILL AGREE. SOME MISREPRESENT IT, SOME ADD TO IT. SOME ONLY AGREE WITH 2 POINTS OR 3 POINTS OR 4 PONTS AND SO ON. I HAVE TO TAKE THE SCRIPTURES AND PLACE THEM BESIDE EACH POINT MADE ON EACH SIDE…I BELIEVE CONCLUSIVELY THE SCRIPTURES SUPPORT IN A LARGE WAY 4 POINTS AND THE 5TH POINT I AM STILL DEBATING WITHIN MYSELF ON THAT ONE WHICH WHETHER CHRIST DIED FOR ALL OR ONLY THE ELECT…RIGHT NOW I MUST CONCLUDE THAT SCRIPTURE SEEMS TO SUPPORT IN A LARGER WAY HE DIED FOR ALL AND I HAVE LAYED THAT OUT FOR YOU IN MUCH OF THE COMMENTS THROUGHOUT THIS STRAND. HOWEVER, LIMITED ATONEMENT STILL DRAWS ME IN AND I AM STILL STUDYING IT. THERE IS ONE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE THAT I HAVE NOT FOUND ANYONE TO RECONCILE FOR ME THAT WOULD PUSH ME TO THE LIMITED ATONEMENT AGREEMENT AND THAT IS IN 2 PETER I THINK…CANNOT REMEMBER.

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  24. Maz said

    Scott: I read Romans 8 today, and verses 28-30 seemed even clearer to me…
    ”And we know that all things work together for good to them who love God, to them who are CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE (His Plan), For WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW, HE ALSO DID PREDESTINATE….(to what?)…TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.

    YOU ARE GETTING CLOSER TO BELIEVING LIKE A CALVINIST….YOU HAVE SPOKEN TRUTHFULLY HERE. HE CALLED HIS ELECT ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE, HIS PLAN. HE FOREKNEW US…NOT THAT HE FOREKNEW WHO WOULD TRUST HIM AND MADE A DECISION BASED ON THAT. HE KNEW US BEFORE TIME BEGAN…SINCE HE FOREKNEW US AS HIS CHOSEN/ELECT HE ALSO PREDESTINED US TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON…YOU ARE GETTING THERE.

    SCOTT

  25. Maz said

    to cont:- (This was and is His plan for us) that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover WHOM HE DID PREDESTINATE (the ones he foreknew) THEM HE ALSO CALLED, and whom he called, THEM HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: and whom He justified, THEM HE ALSO GLORIFIED.”
    It was His foreknowledge by which He chose and predestinated us. This is clearly taught in scripture. More to come….
    Maz

    GOD DID NOT LEARN ANYTHING BY FOREKNOWLEDGE…THIS IS THE MISTAKEN THEOLOGY OF THOSE AGAINST THIS DOCTRINE. HE DID NOT LEARN THAT I WOULD BE SAVED, SO HE CHOSE ME…THAT IS HERETICAL. HE FOREKNEW ME…HE HAD A FOREKNOWLEDGE OF MY EXISTANCE BEFORE TIME….HE CHOSE ME FOR HIS PURPOSES NOT WHAT HE WOULD LEARN OUT IN THE FUTURE. GOD IS OMNISCIENCE…HE CANNOT LEARN SOMETHING…HE ALREADY KNOWS ALL THINGS. THE CLEAR TEACHINGS IN THE SCRIPTURES IS NOT WHAT YOU ARE CLAIMING…AGAIN, IT MAKES OUR GOD SMALL IF HE CAN LEARN SOMETHING…HE CANNOT LEARN ANYTHING.

    SCOTT

  26. Maz said

    So what did He foreknow? His foreknowledge was who would believe on Him from the beginning to the end, for He knew the beginning from the end.

    1 Pet: 1 v 2: ”….Elect, ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEGE OF GOD THE FATHER, THROUGH SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT, UNTO OBEDIENCE AND SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS.”

    Elect due to His knowing who would believe…according to His FOREKNOWLEDGE. Why else wuld His foreknowledge be mentioned?
    He knew….He chose…He saved.
    Maz

    GOD DID NOT CHOSE ANYONE BY LOOKING OUT INTO THE FUTURE TO SEE WHO WOULD BELIEVE AND WHO WOULD NOT…THIS TAKES AWAY THE OMNISCIENCE OF GOD…IT WOULD MEAN HE “LEARNED SOMETHING” AND GOD DOES NOT LEARN ANYTHING. YES, GOD KNOWS THE BEGINNING FROM THE END, HE IS GOD….HOWEVER, THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS ELECTION.

    SCOTT

  27. Maz said

    Scott: I asked you about Replacement Theology, because that is what a lot of Calvinists believe, atleast the ones I have met.
    They believe that the Church is the elect and that Israel no longer has a place in Gods plans.
    They confuse election for Israel with the Believers Chosen in Christ.
    Literally the Church has replaced Israel as the elect of God.
    Maz

    I HAVE NOT THOUGHT OF THIS IN THOSE TERMS. I WILL CHECK THIS THEOLOGY OUT BEFORE I ANSWER. I AM CONCERNED MORE FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL THAN I AM WHETHER THE CHURCH REPLACES ISRAEL OR WHATEVER. I AM NOT GOING TO BE LIKE THE TYPICAL CALVINIST YOU WILL RUN ONTO I DON’T THINK ANYWAY.

    SCOTT

  28. Maz said

    MAZ, READ THROUGH THE COMMENTS…I ADDRESSED EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOUR VERSES YOU PICKED OUT. I HAVE NO FURTHER COMMENT ON THAT. THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE YOU HAVE PRESENTED THAT WOULD STAND AGAINST MY BELIEF, NOT ONE. GOD’S WORD HAS NOT CONTRADICTED ITSELF. THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE I WOULD HAVE TO THROW OUT IN ORDER TO BELIEVE WHAT I BELEIVE. SCOTT

    Scott: What about all the scriptures I listed?

    1 Tim: 2 v 4-6, clearly says: (v3 …God our Savior) ”Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED (universal) and to COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, Who GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL..”…..FOR ALL.

    1 Tim: 4 v 10: ”…for we trust in the Living God, Who is THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN…….ESPECIALLY OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE. These things command and TEACH.”
    The verse is clear, God is the Savior of ALL MEN…..but not only…ALL MEN….but ESPECIALLY those who BELIEVE.
    He is not just the Savior of the chosen, or the elect.
    It is clear in or out of context, this verse stands on its own.

    And even more inclusive is Acts 17 v 30,31: ”And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT, because He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man Whom He has ordained..”
    ALL MEN…..EVERYWHERE….means not just a few here and there, or even locally….ALL MEN EVERYWHERE HAS SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD….SO ALL MEN EVERYWHERE NEED TO REPENT OF SIN.

    Who did Jesus die for? The ungodly. Romans 5 v 6.
    Are we not ALL ungodly?
    Who did Jesus come to save? The lost. Matt: 18 v 11.
    Are we not all lost without Christ?

    GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD….THE WORLD…HE GAVE….HIS ONLY SON….PRECIOUS, ONLY SON….THE SON HE LOVED….GAVE HIMSELF FOR SINNERS.
    And on the cross HE BECAME SIN. ALL SIN.
    THANKS BE TO GOD FOR HIS UNSPEAKABLE GIFT.
    MAZ

    WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN THROUGH THESE VERSES…NOTHING NEW HERE.

    SCOTT

  29. Scott said

    MAZ, HAVE YOU EVER STUDIED MUCH ON THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD? IF YOU HAVE NOT, THIS WOULD BE AN ABSOLUTE GREAT STUDY FOR YOU SOMETIME. ONE OF HIS MANY ATTRIBUTES IS INFINITENESS…HE CANNOT BE MEASURED. WE CANNOT PUT A MEASURE UPON HIM, NOR CAN WE PLACE HIM IN OUR BOXES EITHER WAY. GOD TAKES GREAT PLEASURE IN HIMSELF. IN HIS CREATION HE CALLED IT VERY GOOD.

    THERE WAS NO HEAVY TASK LAID UPON GOD TO REDEEM MANKIND. HE DID NOT HAVE TO REDEEM MANKIND. THERE WAS NO MORAL NECESSITY UPON GOD TO REDEEM US. HE DID NOT HAVE TO SEND JESUS BY NECESSITY…JESUS CAME VOLUNTARILY. IT WAS THE HAPPINESS OF GOD THAT HE WANTED TO REDEEM MANKIND BEFORE TIME BEGAN EVEN BEFORE SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD…OTHERWISE GOD WOULD NOT BE OMNISCIENCE. THIS IS THE SWEETNESS OF THE CHOSEN ONES OF GOD…THAT IN THIS MOMENT BEFORE TIME HE PICKED YOU AND ME TO BE A PART OF HIS HEAVEN AND ETERNITY…HE DID NOT LEAVE IT UP TO ME FROM MY EVIL AND VILE HEART TO CHOOSE HIM, BECAUSE I WOULD NOT HAVE DONE SO. I AM SO GLAD HE DID NOT LEAVE MY SALVATION UP TO ME…I WOULD NEVER HAVE CHOSEN HIM.

    I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH FROM STUDYING THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD AND I AM STILL LEARNING ABOUT GOD FROM THESE ATTRIBUTES. I HAVE NOT GONE THROUGH ALL OF THEM, BUT I AM WORKING ON IT. IT IS A FACINATING STUDY THAT HAS BROUGHT ME CLOSER TO MY LORD.

    WE CANNOT TRUST OUR HEARTS TO GUIDE US, WE MUST TRUST HIS WORD TO GUIDE US. ALL THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE GOD TELLS US OUR HEARTS ARE EVIL IN AND OF ITSELF. IF WE LEAVE OUR DECISIONS BASED ON WHAT OUR HEARTS TELL US, THIS IS TROUBLESOME. THE CHURCH TODAY IS IN DEEP TROUBLE BECAUSE THE CHURCH LEADERS HAVE TRUSTED THEIR HEARTS RATHER THAN GOD’S WORD. THEY HAVE THROWN OUT THE WORD OF GOD AND REPLACED IT WITH WHAT THE HEART SAYS IS RIGHT.

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  30. Maz said

    Scott: If God knew me before I ever existed, as I know He did, then surely He knew EVERYTHING about me, even if I was going to believe or not, so I would also say that He ‘learnt’ nothing about me that He didn’t know before. If He knows the end from the beginning, He would know every single person that would choose to love and follow Him. So the argument does not stand.

    DO YOU HEAR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING….OF COURSE HE KNEW YOU WOULD BELIEVE IN THE FUTURE BECAUSE HE CHOSE YOU BEFOREHAND. HE DID NOT LOOK INTO THE FUTURE AND SAY, WOW, MAZ BELIEVED IN ME…I MUST WRITE HER NAME IN THE BOOK OF LIFE…YOU WERE ALREADY IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE BASED ON THE FACT THAT HE PUT YOU THERE, NOT BECAUSE HE LOOKED INTO THE FUTURE AND SAW YOU ACCEPT HIM…THIS IS NOT AN OMNISCIENCE GOD IF THAT IS HOW HE DID IT. MY GOD IS BIGGER THAN THAT. HE KNEW YOU WOULD BELIEVE BECAUSE HE PREDESTINED YOU TO BELIEVE BEFORE TIME NOT BECUASE OUT OF YOUR OWN PRIDEFUL HEART MAKING THAT DECISION…MANKINDS HEART IS TOO PRIDEFULL TO CHOOSE HIM…IT WILL NOT LET YOU CHOOSE HIM WITHOUT HAVING BEEN CHOSEN AND THEN THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THAT HEART…IMPOSSIBLE TO DO! HE DID NOT LEARN OF WHO WOULD BELIEVE AND WHO WOULD NOT. HE KNOWS WHO WILL BELIEVE IN HIM BECAUSE HE HAS CHOSEN THEM ALREADY…IT IS NOT HIM LEARNING SOMETHING. HE KNOWS WHO WILL NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE HE DID NOT CHOOSE THEM, YET THEY ARE A PART OF HIS PLAN NONE THE LESS FOR HIS PLEASURE AND PURPOSES.

    If He did not know whether I would believe or not then that would make Him ignorant, and he certainly
    was not. So His foreknowledge of me in every way I believe gave Him the criteria by which He chose me, or else He would have had to choose randomly.

    BINGO…ONLY HE KNOWS WHY HE CHOSE YOU WAS NOT RANDOM, BUT ONLY HE KNOWS WHY HE CHOSE WHOM HE DID, BUT WE DO KNOW IT WAS NOT BECAUSE HE LEARNED SOMETHING FROM THE FUTURE, THAT WOULD MEAN HE IS NOT IN CONTROL OF US…HAD NOTHING TO WITH YOU, YOUR HEART OR ANYTHING ELSE…WAS NOT BECAUSE HE LOOKED INTO THE FUTURE AND SAID THAT MAZ HAD A GOOD HEART AND ACCEPTED ME OR THAT SCOTT HAD A GOOD HEART AND ACCEPTED ME, SO I WILL CHOOSE THEM…HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT OR US…IT IS NOT ABOUT US.

    God is not the God of randomness. We know that He is a God of purpose and plans. He has a purpose and reason for everything. (Ecclesiasts 3)
    Maz

    COULD NOT AGREE MORE ABOUT HE IS A GOD OF PURPOSES AND PLANS…SO WHY DO YOU THINK HE WOULD LEAVE OUR SALVATION UP TO OUR RANDOM CHOICE TO CHOOSE HIM WITHOUT HIM CHOOSING US FIRST? OUR HEARTS ARE NOT DIRECTED TO HIM…FROM BIRTH OUR HEARTS ARE DIRECTED AT OURSELF. OUR ENTIRE LIFE IS FOR SELF UNLESS HE HAS CHOSEN US FROM THE BEGINNING AND HOLY SPIRIT BEGANS TO THIS AWESOME WORK IN OUR HEARTS. HE DOES NOT AND DID NOT LEAVE HIS PERFECT PLAN UP TO US. IF THAT WAS THE CASE NONE WOULD BE SAVED…NOT ONE.

    SCOTT

  31. Maz said

    Scott: Knowing God for over 35 years I have learnt many things about Him, and I have also gotten to know Him, although I am still getting to know Him even now……I have studied the names of God, which in themselves reveal the multi characters of God and what he is like.
    Not having my real father at home (step-father) most of my life I think I found it difficult to see God as my Father, I could relate to Jesus my Lord far better, but I am still learning as we all are to KNOW HIM, WHOM TO KNOW IS LIFE ETERNAL.

    I do not believe that we can come to God without Him calling us or drawing us, which is what He did with me, but I…….I….had to respond, and that is where I suppose I differ with your understanding of the Holy Spirits work in an unsaved heart. REPENTANCE HAS TO COME FROM US.
    Maz

    AND THAT REPENTANCE CAN ONLY COME FROM A HEART THAT HAS BEEN PREPARED (REGENERATED) BY THE HOLY SPIRIT BEFOREHAND TO BE ABLE TO REPENT….YOU CANNOT RESPOND IN THE AFFIRMATIVE TO THE GOSPEL WITHOUT THIS WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT DONE PRIOR TO YOUR REPENTANCE…IMPOSSIBLE. YOU MAY NOT HAVE RECOGNIZED THE TIME PRIOR TO YOUR SALVATION AS THE HOLY SPIRIT REGENERATING YOUR HEART IN ORDER TO RESPOND POSITIVELY TO HIS CALL WHEN YOU DID…I TIHNK THIS MAY BE WHY SO MANY CANNOT SEE THIS BECAUSE IT CAME SO SUBTLE. ALSO, THE HOLY SPIRIT COULD HAVE REGENERATED OR PREPARED YOUR HEART ONLY MOMENTS BEFORE HEARING THE CALL TO REPENTANCE, BUT IN EITHER CASE THIS HAD TO TAKE PLACE OR THAT CALL YOU RESPONDED TO POSITIVELY WOULD HAVE GONE RIGHT OVER YOU WITHOUT ANY REACTION FROM YOU AT ALL OR BASICALLY A REJECTION, MANY DO NOT EVEN RECOGNIZE THEY HAVE REJECTED A CALLING AT TIMES. THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS IN US FIRST…NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. THIS IS A STICKY POINT WITH MANY…BECAUSE AGAIN…IN OUR NATURAL STATE WE WANT TO CLAIM TO HAVE SOME MOVE TOWARDS GOD FIRST OR THAT JUST OUT OF THE BLUE WE SAID “YES” TO THE CALLING WHEN ALL ALONG IT WAS THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT FIRST… MAY NOT SOUND LOGICAL, BUT I ADDRESSED THE LOGICAL STATEMENT IN ANOTHER COMMENT. GOD DOES NOT SEEM TO WORK IN THE LOGICAL.

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  32. Maz said

    Scott: I certainly had no pride in coming to Jesus as my Savior. How can we when our sin caused His death. Where is the pride in knowing that you caused such agony in Gods heart?
    Repentance is not prideful, it should bring us to our knees in humbleness.
    I still feel that way. I do not see myself as anything because I am saved. God only has made me what I am, and Praise God for that! I am just a child who has found her Heavenly Father. And I love HIm.
    Maz

    WHEN YOU ARE CHOSEN, THE HOLY SPIRIT REGENERATES YOU HEART…THIS WAY YOU WILL HAVE NO PRIDE WHEN YOU ACCEPT CHRIST…YOU COULD NOT OTHERWISE. THIS IS THE POINT TO BE MADE HERE. WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRITS WORK IN OUR HEARTS WE WILL NOT KNOW WE CAUSED AGONY IN GOD’S HEART BECAUSE WE DO NOT KNOW HIM. THINK OF WHEN YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO A SKEPTIC…THEY DO NOT SEE THAT THEY NEED GOD OR JESUS, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE…THEY HAVE ALOT OF PRIDE IN THEIR HEARTS. UNTIL OR IF THE HOLY SPIRIT REGENERATES THEIR HEART, THEY WILL NEVER SEE THE NEED FOR GOD, THEY WILL NEVER THINK ABOUT AGONY IN GOD’S HEART, THEY WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE LOVE OF CHRIST FOR THEM….NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.

    WE ARE NOT ANYTHING TO BOAST OF IN AND OF OURSELVES BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED OF COURSE…WE NOW MUST BOAST IN WHAT GOD DID IN OUR LIVES….IT THE FACT THAT HE CHOSE ME NOT THAT I CHOSE HIM. HE CAME TO ME AND FOUND ME AND WORKED ON MY HEART AS WAS PREDESTINED TO HAPPEN SO THAT I WOULD ACCEPT HIM….I DID NOT COME TO HIM, BECAUSE I WOULD NOT HAVE TO COME TO HIM…MOST BELIEVERS I KNOW WOULD SAY THE SAME THING. I WAS WORTHLESS AS A WORM UNTIL CHRIST SAVED ME. I DID NOT KNOW I NEEDED HIM UNTIL THE HOLY SPIRIT STARTED WORKING ON MY HEART AND MOVING ME OR DRAGGING ME IN THAT DIRECTION….IF THAT WAS NOT THE CASE I WOULD HAVE NEVER MOVED TOWARDS HIM.

    I SAID NOTHING ABOUT REPENTANCE BEING PRIDEFUL..THIS IS TO MISUNDERSTAND. THE PRIDEFUL HEART WE HAVE THAT IS UNREGENERATED WILL NOT REPENT, PERIOD! THAT HEART THAT IS NOT REGENERATED IS PRIDEFUL AND WILL NOT REPENT! HOWEVER, A REGENERATED HEART, BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, CAN REPENT AND STAMP OUT PRIDE. REPENTANCE IS US GETTING ON OUR KNEES SO TO SPEAK AND ACCEPTING THE SAVIOR…HOWEVER, UNLESS GOD REGENERATE THE HEART…THE PRIDE AND EVILNESS WILL CONTINUE. FOR YOU, THE HOLY SPIRIT REGENERATED YOUR HEART, SO PRIDE WAS REMOVED AND YOU REPENTED. I HAVE NO ARGUEMENT WITH THAT…BUT I HOPE YOU DO NOT THINK THAT FROM YOUR HEART WITHOUT THE INTERVENTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO REGENERATE YOUR HEART THAT YOU CAME TO KNOW GOD…THAT IS TO BASE YOUR SALVATION SOLELY ON YOUR OWN EFFORTS WITHOUT GOD. THAT IS HERESY, NOT SALVATION. I DON’T THINK YOU INTEND TO COME ACROSS THAT WAY NOR BELIEVE THAT TRUTHFULLY.

    SCOTT

  33. Maz said

    Scott: ”Many are invited, but few are chosen” is a verse that you quoted in another blog, it is in another version to mine, but when I read it I thought, Why were the many invited to come to something that some of them weren’t able to come to?
    You don’t send out invitations for something to more people than you wanted to come. This just doesn’t seem logical.
    Maz

    I THOUGHT I COVERED THIS THOROUGHLY TWICE BEFORE…GOD GIVES THE INVITATION OUT TO MANY BECAUSE ALL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY, BUT UNLESS THEY ARE CHOSEN BEFOREHAND THEY WILL NOT HEAR OR BELIEVE. GOD DOES NOT JUST SEND OUT HIS MESSAGE TO A FEW. THE FEW WILL BELIEVE, BUT THE INVITATION MUST GO OUT TO MANY. GOD IS NOT UNJUST. IF MY NEIGHBOR IS AT A MEETING WITH ME AND THE MESSAGE IS THE SAME THAT WE MUST REPENT AND COME TO CHRIST…I REACT BY FALLING ON MY KNEES IN FULL REPENTANCE AND ACCEPT CHRIST YET MY NEIGHBOR HAS NO REACTION AT ALL. THROUGHOUT THE REST OF HIS LIFE HE NEVER REACTS TO THE CALL OF GOD TO REPENT….THIS IS BECAUSE HE WAS NOT CHOSEN, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT DO ANY REGENERATION WORK ON HIS HEART, HE COULD NOT BELIEVE…HOWEVER, AT THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT HE CANNOT SAY THAT GOD HAD NOT TOLD HIM TO REPENT…BECAUSE HE WAS AT THE SAME MEETING I WAS AT AND THE GOSPEL WAS PRESENTED TO ALL IN ATTENDANCE..YET ONLY A FEW WERE CHOSEN FROM THAT CROWD. IT IS NOT LIKE WE BELIEVE THE MESSAGE GOES OUT AND ONLY THE CHOSEN WILL HEAR THAT MESSAGE WHILE THE REST ARE CAUSED TO BE DEAF ABOUT IT…THEY HEAR IT WITH THEIR EARS, BUT THE UNREGENERATE WILL NOT HEAR WITH THEIR HEARTS…THOSE HEARTS ARE HARDENED. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT SOMEDAY THEIR HEARTS WILL NOT BE SOFTENED OR REGENERATED, BUT MANY WILL NEVER HEAR WITH THEIR HEARTS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT…SIMPLE.

    I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT OF MY GOD AS LOGICAL….HE DOES NOT WORK IN WHAT SEEMS LOGICAL. ISAIAH 55:8-9 “FOR MY THOUGHTS ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS, NEITHER ARE YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, DECLARES THE LORD, AS THE HEAVENS ARE HIGHER THAN THE EARTH, SO ARE MY WAYS HIGHER THAN YOUR WAYS, AND MY THOUGHTS THAN YOUR THOUGHTS”…..WHAT WE THINK AS BEING LOGICAL DOES NOT MATTER AND MOST LIKELY IF IT MAKES SENSE TO US, IT IS PROBABLY NOT TRUE CONCERNING GOD. HE DOES NOT INTEND THAT WE UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING…HE INTENDS THAT WE TRUST HIM AS TO HIS DESIGN, TRUST HIS PURPOSES, TRUST HIS PLAN AND THAT HE IS WORKING THAT PLAN TO PERFECTION. HE INTENDS US TO SIMPLY OBEY…FOR IT IS BETTER TO OBEY THAN SACRIFICE. THIS IS HOW I CAN ACCEPT THIS DOCTRINE AS TRUTH…BY THE WORD OF GOD, THE KNOWLEDGE HE HAS GIVEN ME BY HIS WISDOM I ASKED FOR, AND THE FACT THAT MY LOGICAL BRAIN COULD NOT ACCEPT IT THIS WAY, BUT FOR ME TO SIMPLY BE OBEDIENT TO HIS WORD AND ACCEPT HIS WAYS AND THOUGHTS…THAT IS HOW I CAN BELIEVE AND UNDERSTAND THIS. I LEFT LOGIC AND REASON AT THE DOOR OF MY HUMAN CLOSET WHEN IT COMES TO GOD IN ORDER TO MOVE ON BEYOND THIS AND TRUST IN HIS PLAN. IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO THE HUMAN MIND…I WILL ADMIT IT…BUT I TRUST IN IT BECAUSE HIS WORD SUPPORTS IT…I DO NOT PRETEND TO UNDERSTAND IT ALL AND PROBABLY HAVE BOTCHED IT ALL UP, BUT I DO NOT QUESTION WHAT I HAVE READ AND COME TO UNDERSTAND IN HIS WORD. I HAVE NOT TRUSTED MY HEART TO TELL ME THIS…I HAVE TRUSTED IN WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS SHOWN ME IN GOD’S WORD.

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  34. Scott said

    If God predestines us because of what He sees in the future as to what we will believe, then…

    1. …isn’t He predestining us because He is seeing in us something that is motivating Him to save us? If our faith motivates God to save us, then it must have some merit in God’s eyes, otherwise it would not motivate God to save us. This is not the God of the Bible. It may not be logical, but when is God about man’s logic?

    2. Then God is looking into the future in order to learn as I have said before. This would violate His attribute of omniscience. In other words, if God is looking into the future to see our choices, then this means God is constrained by time (otherwise He would not have to look into the future). God does not operate in time. The truth is that God is omniscient and knows all things all the time without time. He does not have to look anywher or anytime to discover anything about us or any event…yet He knows what will happen. To say that He looks into the future to see who would pick Him and then He predestines them is to say that God essentially is learning and adapting to the knowledge He gains in His future looking. I cannot accept that God learns something from the future…this just violates His greatness and holiness and His Omniscience.

    Scott

  35. Scott said

    If you need some logic…here you go:

    1. God created man, He created the will of man, and the physical body of man since God is the one who forms us in the womb as we find in Isaiah 44:2,24.

    2. Since God knows everything, a person’s free will is not outside God’s knowledge or reach. He can control this will of man.

    3. God has placed this person in a particular place and time on this earth for His purposes.

    That is about the extent of logic I can make out of this part of the debate.

    Scott

  36. Scott said

    God is the one who softens hearts:

    Deut. 29:4, “…to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.” Some people just cannot see because God has not opened their spiritual eyes too see or their hearts to accept yet. The Lord does this, not man.

    Jer. 24:7, “‘And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.” This is speaking of Judah and it even goes further. Not only is talking about bringing His remnant back and opening their hearts to accept him, but He also talks about the others not of this remnant…He is not waiting on them or giving them a chance…He says, “I will make them abhorrent and an offense…”

    Scott

  37. Maz said

    Scott: As far as what God said in Jeremiah, did you not notice that He wasn’t talking about individuals but ”His people”…..the whole nation. I believe it.

    YES, I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS SPEAKING OF, BUT THE SAME TREND FOLLOWS FOR THE INDIVIDUALS AS WELL. INDIVIDUALS ARE “HIS PEOPLE”…WE ARE A PART OF A NATION…A PART OF A CHURCH (THE CHURCH OF CHRIST-NOT THE DENOMINATION BY THE WAY, BUT THE ONE TRUE CHURCH IN CHRIST)…IT TAKES INDIVIDUALS TO MAKE UP THE CHURCH, THE BRIDE OF CHRIST:-)

    We are talking about God choosing some and not others, for apparently no reason atall except that He is God and He can.
    But I believe He had a purpose and reason, and that was that He chose us ”in Christ” before the foundation of the world because of His foreknowledge about us. What He knew of us made Him choose…..the only thing about us that could effect His choice is belief on our part (with the drawing of the Spirit).

    Scott: I don’t think you understand how illogical your argument sounds, and I know I keep saying ‘illogical’ but I can’t think of a better word.
    You said about the two people in a meeting hearing the gospel, one hears and believes and the other doesn’t because he hasn’t been chosen. So how can God judge him for not repenting when God did not give him the WILL to repent. How can he repent if he was not regenerated by God TO repent? No one CAN repent if they aren’t chosen….Calvin theology says.
    You can’t judge someone for not doing what you made impossible for him to do, this is not just and not logical.
    Also God is not bound by time, He does not dwell in time although He does exist within time and yet is also everywhere all the time, so He doesn’t have to LOOK INTO the future to see us believing….He is there. HE KNOWS ALL THINGS. He knows the beginning from the end, He is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, and He is eternal.

    I too read the Bible and see the same scriptures you see but somehow we are interpreting them different.
    And true repentance cannot be manipulated, it has to be true and genuine from a sinners heart, even though the Holy Spirit will draw and call, the response must come from the persons heart.
    If someone has not been chosen, then how can Jesus say ”You WILL NOT COME that you may have eternal life.”
    Literally: ”You do NOT WILL TO COME…”
    In other words He is speaking of THEIR WILL TO COME not Gods. If they aren’t chosen then they have NO WILL to come have they?

    YOU WILL HAVE TO ASK THE LORD ON ALL THAT YOURSELF…I DO NOT UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY HOW HE HAS IT ALL WORKED OUT…I JUST KNOW THAT GOD CHOSES SOME AND NOT OTHERS:-)

    F.B. Meyer, the British Baptist said, ” ‘Wilt thou be made whole?’ The whole question turns on the attitude of the will. And it is for lack of realising this that many grope for years in darkness, who might otherwise walk in the light of life….His (Gods) one complaint against us is that we are NOT WILLING. ‘Ye WILL NOT come unto Me, that ye might have life.’ ‘If any man WILL come after me..’ ‘I would…but ye WOULD NOT.’ ‘If ye be WILLING and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land..’…His one prime concern is the will. What WILLEST thou? WILT thou be saved? The question of salvation is a moral one; it hinges on THE WILL…The initial step of salvation is OUR WILLINGNESS to be saved.” (Christian Living pp. 85,89-90,94)

    I THOUGHT F.B. MEYER WAS A STAUNCH CALVINIST:-)

    I have other quotes by theologians but I have said enough for now. Goodnight.
    Maz

    THANK YOU FOR DAYS TO EXPOUND. YOU MAY OR MAY NOT SEE IT SOMEDAY. IT MAY BE ILLOGICAL, BECAUSE MY GOD IS NOT NECESSARILY LOGICAL, SO I AM SURE IT SOUNDS THAT WAY. I REALLY DON’T CARE IF IT SOUNDS ILLOGICAL OR NOT…NEVER TRIED TO BE LOGICAL IN MY LIFE SINCE I BECAME A CHRISTIAN. I HAVE NEVER CARED IF MANY AGREED WITH ME OR NOT EITHER…I REALLY DO NOT THINK CHRISTIANS WILL BE IN THE MAJORITY WHEN IT IS ALL SAID AND DONE. MANY TRY TO MAKE OUT LIKE EVERYONE IS GOING TO BE SAVED IN THE END, BUT I DO NOT THINK SO…MOST LIKELY ABOUT 10% TO 20% OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION WILL GET TO HEAVEN…MANY WILL THINK THEY ARE GOING, BUT HAVE NOT REALLY BEEN SAVED. I AM NOT BIG ON PUTTING NUMBERS AND PERCENTAGES ON ANYTHING, BUT THAT ALL TIES IN TO THE “FEW CHOSEN” AND “NARROW GATE” SCENARIOS FROM SCRIPTURE IT SEEMS. IT ALSO TIES IN TO THE STATISTICS I AM SEEING FROM GALLOP POLLS AND THE BILLY GRAHAM CRUSADES ASSOCIATIONS FIGURES…THEY STATE THAT ONLY ABOUT 10% OF THOSE PROFESSING TO BE BORN AGAIN ARE REALLY BORN AGAIN. WHICH MAKES ME WONDER HOW ANYONE CAN BELIEVE THAT “WHOSOEVER” WANTS TO BE SAVED CAN BE SAVED ON THEIR OWN MERIT AS THE ARMENIANS THEOLOGY TRANSLATES “WHOSOEVER”. IT JUST DOES NOT FIT. THE BILLY GRAHAM CRUSADE HAS BEEN CLAIMING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE SAVED OVER THE YEARS, BUT THEIR VERY NUMBERS DO NOT SUPPORT THAT.

    ANYWAY, IT HAS BEEN GOOD TALKING AND CONVERSING WITH YOU. IT HAS BEEN GOOD FOR ME TO GET BACK IN THERE AND REVISIT MY BELIEFS…I AM MORE CONVINCED NOW THAN I WAS WHEN WE STARTED THE CONVERSATION…I LEARNED EVEN MORE OF WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE TRUE. MY LORD CHOOSING ME IS SUCH A HUGE THING FOR ME….HIM CHOOSING ME FAR OUT WEIGHS ME CHOOSING HIM…WHICH IS NOT HOW IT WORKS ANYWAY:-)

    PRESSING FORWARD IN CHRIST MY LORD,
    SCOTT

  38. Scott said

    DO YOU THINK THAT THE SINNER CAN REGENERATE HIS OWN HEART? IF SO, HOW CAN THEY REGENERATE THEIR OWN HEARTS UNTO CHRIST?

    HERE IS A SHORT LIST OF CALVINISTIC TEACHERS AND PREACHERS PAST AND PRESENT IF YOU EVER WANT TO READ SOMETHING WRITTEN BY THEM:

    The Apostle Paul, Augustine, Andrew and Horatius Bonar, Jonathon Edwards, William Law, Philip Schaff, J.C. Ryle, John Owen, John Gill, John Newton (wrote “Amazing Grace”), John Bunyan (Pilgrims Progress), John Murray, John Flavel, John Robbins, A.A. Hodge, Charles Hodge, F.B. Meyer, William Gurnall, Matthew Henry, John Gill, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, Jerimiah Buroughs, Richard Baxter, Stephen Charnock, D. Martin Lloyd Jones, David Brainerd, Thomas Goodwin, George Whitefield, Louis Berkhof, A.W. Pink, Francis Schaeffer, Sinclair B. Ferguson, D.James Kennedy, Charles Stanley. W.A. Criswell, Jay P. Green, Gordon Clark, Loraine Boettner, R.J. Rushdooney, Ian Murray, J.Gresham Machen, Charles Swindoll, B.B. Warfield, J.I. Packer, Jay Adams, Millard J. Erickson, Gordon Lewis, Lewis Sperry Chafer, John MacArthur, John Piper, Steve Farrar, and many more. These were or are rock solid theologians, preachers and teachers of the full word of our sovereign God.

    SCOTT

  39. Maz said

    Scott: Thanks again for all that.
    You said, ”I have never thot of my God as logical”. Do you mean that He is illogical?
    God Does not do anything but with a purpose and a reason, that is why I find it difficult to believe that His choice of who goes to Heaven and who goes to hell does not have a reason. To me His foreknowledge is the reason, as I have said before.

    AGAIN, GOD OMNISCIENCE…THIS IS ONE OF HIS ATTRIBUTES. IF HE HAS CHOSEN BASED ON SOMETHING HE LEARNED ABOUT US THEN HE IS NOT OMNISCIENCE AND WE JUST TOOK AWAY AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD…GOD DOES NOT LEARN ANYTHING. WE CANNOT THINK ABOUT GOD IN HUMAN TERMS ON EVERYTHING.

    NOW I ASK: WAS IT LOGICAL THAT GOD CHOSE JACOB OVER ESSAU TO OUR WAY OF THINKING? WHAT IS ILLOGICAL TO US MAY BE MOST LOGICAL TO GOD…WE HAVE OUR OWN LITTLE DEFINITIONS OF THESE THINGS, BUT GOD HAS A HIGHER PURPOSE. WHEN GOD TELLS US THAT OUR THOUGHTS ARE NOT HIS THOUGHTS OR OUR WAYS HIS WAYS…THEN HOW DO WE THINK WE CAN UNDERSTAND ALL THIS LOGICALLY? WE CANNOT COME TO TERMS WITH GOD LOGICALLY…WE JUST CAN’T. YES, HE HAS A PURPOSE AND REASON, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL MAKE SENSE TO YOU AND I…IT MAY SEEM VERY ILLOGICAL TO US AND MOST OF THE TIME IT DOES. WHO DID JESUS PICK AS HIS DISCIPLES? WAS IT THE WELL EDUCATED, RICH, WEALTHY, INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE? TO THIS WORLD JESUS’ PICK FOR DISCIPLES WAS MOST ILLOGICAL. LET’S LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS 1:26-30 “Brothers, think of what you were when you wre called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God CHOSE the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God CHOSE the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He CHOSE the lowly things of the world and the despised things-to nullify the that are, so that no one may boast before Him. It is BECAUSE of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness, and redemption.” HAVE YOU EVER WENT THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES TO COUNT THE NUMBER OF TIME GOD USES “CHOSE OR CHOSEN OR CHOOSE”? IT IS IN THE BIBLE IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT FORMS ALOT. HE HAS A PATTERN FOR CHOOSING HIMSELF. IN THIS PASSAGE I JUST STATED, GOD DOES NOT DO THINGS LOGICAL BY HUMAN STANDARDS. WHEN WE THINK WE HAVE IT FIGURED OUT BY OUR STANDARDS, THEN LOOK OUT….GOD IS NOT ABOUT OUR STANDARDS, OUR BELIEFS, OUR WAY OF SALVATION OR ANYTHING….GOD IS ABOUT HIS STANDARD AND HIS WAY. WHO ARE WE TO TELL GOD THAT HE CANNOT CHOOSE CERTAIN PEOPLE FOR SALVATION AND NOT OTHERS…THIS IS NOT OUR BUSINESS. OUR BUSINESS IS TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE AND LET THE LORD DO HIS THING…IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE. YET, OUR HUMAN NATURE MAKES US WANT TO PLEAD WITH PEOPLE OR BEG PEOPLE TO GIVE THEIR HEARTS TO CHRIST WHEN THEY POSSIBLY CANNOT. SOMETHING ELSE THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO MOST PEOPLE IS HOW A LOVING GOD COULD KILL SO MANY “INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN” THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE. THEY WERE JUST LIVING IN THAT CITY AND GOD TOLD JOSHUA, FOR EXAMPLE, TO KILL EVERY LIVING THING IN THOSE CITIES INCLUDING WOMEN, CHILDREN AND ANIMALS. I HAVE HEARD NUMEROUS PEOPLE SAY THEY CANNOT WORSHIP A GOD LIKE THAT. WELL, OUR GOD IS NOT JUST A LITTLE GOD OF LOVE. THROUGHOUT THE SCRIPTURES I FIND GOD NOT MAKING SENSE TO ME…IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO GOD, BUT NOT TO ME AND THAT IS “OK”. HE DOES NOT HAVE TO MAKE SENSE TO ME.

    No, I don’t believe people can save themselves or come to God on their own merits, they come because the Holy Spirit draws and calls them (and I have stated this before). I do believe though that the call goes out to the whosoever, and yes, I know not all will respond, and I know that only few will come. This is the sad thing about it, there are those in Church who think they are Christians…I have met many…many, who profess faith, but they have no relationship with Jesus through the new birth.

    You have said that you believe that Jesus died for all.
    This is what the Bible teaches. Then how is it that you do not accept the ALL when it comes to the scriptures that say God wants ALL men to be saved?
    He WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED.
    He is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish.
    THAT is why Jesus died for ALL because he made it possible for ALL to come, though we know they won’t all come because of their own wilful rejection of Him.

    I quoted F.B. Meyer….yet you say he is a Calvinist.
    How come?
    The Wesleys did not agree with Whitefield did they?

    NO, THE WESLEYS WERE OF THE CALVINISTIC BELIEFS AND THEN GOT OFF INTO THE ARMENIAN WAY OF THINKING. MEYER IS A KNOWN CALVINIST. WHITEFIELD AND THE WESLEYS PARTED WAYS WHEN THE WESLEYS STARTED CHANGING THEIR BELIEFS. I HAVE NEVER SAID GOD CANNOT USE ANYTHING HE CHOOSES TO FURTHER HIS KINGDOM…THAT IS NOT THE POINT. THE UNDERLYING POINT IS JUST HOW DOES ONE COME TO KNOW CHRIST. CAN THEY COME TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS TO GOD OF THEIR OWN SINFUL HEART AND MIND TO FAITH? I DO NOT THINK SO. THE HOLY SPIRIT MUST CHANGE THE HEART BEFORE THEY CAN COME TO FAITH….THIS HAS BEEN THE CONTENTION FOR CENTURIES.

    In Mark we have the parable of the Sower sowing the seed…the Word. I believe it is the inspired Word that is planted in the ground of a persons heart that brings the faith…ofcourse we know about the different ground, but the ground represents the nature of the different hearts, those that get choked by the cares of this life…..etc…some people let the cares of the world choke the Word God sown in their heart…..but I believe that Word has the power within itself to make known the way of salvation to a lost soul..

    IF THAT PERSONS HEART HAS BEEN REGENERATED…OTHERWISE IT WILL NOT HAVE ANY POWER IN THAT PERSONS LIFE.

    ..it is the gospel preached that has the power within it (The Word is Living) to open the eyes of the blind….but as we read in the Word, it is SATAN that comes along to steal it out of their hearts….not God.

    GOD ALLOWS THIS, YES. SATAN DOES NOT HAVE FREE REIN TO DO AS HE PLEASES UNLESS THE FATHER ALLOWS IT. HE COULD NOT TAKE JOBS LIFE, BUT ALLOWED HIM MUCH ROOM TO DO ANYTHING ELSE…ONLY AT GOD’S ALLOWANCE.

    It is SATAN that blinds the minds of those who do not believe. And yes I know God blinded Israel….partially for a time…so that His purpose could be accomplished in the death of His
    Son. So that the Gentiles, and the rest of the world could come to God, not just His chosen people Israel.

    IT IS ALSO GOD WHO HARDENED PHARAOHS HEART-EXODUS 10:20. ROMANS 9:18 “THEREFORE GOD HAS MERCY ON WHOM HE WANTS TO HAVE MERCY AND HE HARDENS WHOM HE WANTS TO HARDEN.” IN THE VERSE BEFORE THIS HE SPEAKS OF THE PURPOSE FOR BRINGING PHARAOH UP….IT WAS NOT FOR PHARAOH TO BE SAVED…IT WAS FOR GOD’S PURPOSE TO DISPLAY GOD’S POWER AND THAT GOD’S MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED IN ALL THE EARTH. PHARAOH WAS A PAWN IN THE HANDS OF OUR ALMIGHTY GOD. THIS IS VERY HARD FOR MANY TO ACCEPT, BUT THIS IS OUR GOD. HE RAISES UP KINGS AND HE PUTS DOWN KINGS. SURE GOD ALLOWS SATAN TO BLIND PEOPLE AS WELL, THIS IS GOD’S CHOICE NOT SATANS CHOICE…SATAN IS A PAWN IN THE HANDS OF ALMIGHTY GOD AS WELL. DO YOU THINK THAT SATAN JUST HAS FREE REIN OVER THE EARTH TO DO AS HE PLEASES WITH WHOMEVER HE PLEASES? GOD ALLOWS SATAN TO SIFT US, BLIND SOME, BUT IT IS ALL FOR GOD’S PURPOSES NOT SATANS. YES, SATAN WOULD LIKE FOR US TO BELIEVE GOD HAS NO CONTROL OVER HIM, BUT GOD HAS FULL CONTROL.

    And that is why I asked you about Replacement Theology, because Israel is still Elect of God, still Gods Chosen people…..R.P. replaces Israel (HIs Chosen people) with the Church (His CHosen people).
    R.P. believes that God has no more to do with Israel, He has cut them off forever. But this is not so. (Romans 11). God still has plans for Israel. HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE. Elect of God and precious.

    Calvinism may not be a cult but it could still be heresy.

    CALVINISM IS NOT HERESY I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT…IT CANNOT BE HERESY TO BELIEVE IN A GOD THAT IS IN FULL CONTROL OF HIS CREATION, IS SOVEREIGN, SENT HIS SON TO REDEEM US, IS OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPOTENT, THE TRINITY, AND ON AND ON. WE DO NOT PREACH OR TEACH ANYTHING HERETICAL. TO SAY THAT MAN CA SAVE HIMSELF OR COME TO GOD ON HIS OWN IS WHERE YOU GET INTO HERESY. I HAVE SEEN THESE PASTORS THAT CLAIM THAT CALVINISM IS HERESY AND BEEN ON ALL THE CRAZY SITES…DON’T TRUST IN THOSE…DO NOT LOWER YOURSELF TO GO INT HAT DIRECTION. IF THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE GETTING YOUR THEOLOGY DON’T BOTHER. THAT IS CRAZY. WE CAN EITHER BE LEVEL HEADED ABOUT THIS OR WE CAN BE DONE.

    I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT GOD WAS THROUGH WITH ISRAEL, NEVER. IF SOME BELIEVE THAT THEN GREAT….THEY CAN BELIEVE AS THEY WISH JUST LIKE YOU CAN BELIEVE WHAT YOU WILL. THAT IS BETWEEN THEM AND GOD. AS I STATED IN THE BEGINNING, I DO NOT CALL MYSELF A CALVINIST….HOWEVER, IT CLOSELY FITS WHAT I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES US ON EVERYTHING. I AM STILL WAIVERING BACK AND FORTH ON “LIMITED ATONEMENT” IN THE CALVINISTIC SENSE OF THAT PHRASE.

    Thanks for the exrensive list of names. I’m sure I’d be able to list as many on the opposing side but I’d like to quote a passage about A.W. Pink who is in the list.
    ”Dr. Gaebelein was once asked to comment on a very pronounced Calvinistic book, A.W. Pink’s ‘The Sovereignty of God’, in this question submitted to OUR HOPE magazine, ‘Do you think Mr. Pink’s book, ‘The Sovereignty of God’ is scriptural? I recently read this book and it has upset me as no other book I ever read. I was attacked by terrible doubts as to God’s justice and His very Being!’
    Dr. Gaebelein’s strong reply followed: ‘Mr. Pink used to be a contributor to our magazine. His articles on GLEANINGS ON GENESIS are good, and we had them printed in book form. But when he began to teach his frightful doctrines which make the God of Love a monster we broke fellowhip with him. The book you have read is totally unscriptural. It is akin to blasphamy. It presents God as a Being of injustice and maligns His holy character. The book denies that our blessed Lord died for the ungodly. According to Pink’s perversions He died for the elect only. You are not the only one who has been led into darkness by this book. Whoever the publisher is, and whoever stands behind the circulation of such a monstrous thing has a grave responsibility. It is just this kind of teaching which makes athiests” (OUR HOPE, Vol. 37, No.11, May 1931, p.684)

    THAT IS BULL AND YOU KNOW IT…A PERSON IS AN ATHIEST BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE AND THEIR HEART SIMPLY CANNOT GO ANYWHERE ELSE. MANY AN ATHIEST HAS BEEN SAVED. I COULD FILL THE PAGES WITH THE NUMBER OF ATHIEST THAT HAVE STOOD IN TESTIMONY AT OUR CHURCH WHO DID NOT WANT TO GO TO CHURCH OR HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT CHRIST AND YET THEY CAME TO LISTEN TO CHUCK SWINDOLL AND AFTER SEVERAL WEEKS OF HEARING THE MESSAGES THEY ARE NOW BELEIVERS. IN OUR MENS BIBLE STUDY WITH STEVE FARRAR, A NUMBER OF ATHIEST CAME ASSISTING A FRIEND OF THEIRS WHO HAS “ALS”…EACH OF THOSE MEN ARE NOW BELIEVERS…NO ALTER CALLS-NO PREACHING THAT TOLD THEM THEY BETTER GET RIGHT WITH GOD BEFORE THEY DIE AND GO TO HELL. IT WAS JUST THE SIMPLE PREACHING AND EXPOUNDING OF GOD’S WORD EACH AND EVERY WEEK THAT THEY DISCOVERED THAT GOD IS REAL AND HE CAN CHANGE THEIR LIVES.

    NOW, I AM NOT COMMENTING ON THAT RAMBLING ABOUT PINK…I DO NOT KNOW PINK PERSONALLY…I HAVE READ NUMEROUS THINGS WRITTEN BY HIM AND READ NOTHING SO FAR I DISAGREED WITH. I DO NOT KNOW WHO DR. GAEBELEIN IS AND IT DOES NOT MATTER. I SIMPLY GAVE YOU THAT LIST IN CASE YOU EVER RUN ACROSS SOMETHING THEY WROTE, GRAB IT AND READ IT TO SEE WHAT YOU THINK…DON’T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. I DID NOT GIVE THAT LIST TO YOU TO START DISECTING EACH PERSONS LIFE. NONE OF THOSE MEN WERE PERFECT IN EVERY WAY. I DON’T AGREE WITH EACH OF THEM 100%…BUT THEY WOULD NOT AGREE WITH ME 100% EITHER. I AM NOT WASTING TIME ON THIS KIND OF STUFF. FORGET THE LIST.

    It’s an old quote but stands the test of time, I too have had troubling thots through debating Calvinism, to the extent that I have doubted whether I was one of the chosen or not just because I do not believe Calvinism. They were only fleeting doubts, but to think that I could not be one of the chosen and I had no choice but to go to hell because God just chose me to do so fills me with horror.
    I DO NOT believe God has assigned people to hell when He has done all He has done by His grace to make a way of salvation by giving up His One and Only precious Son. Just for a few? No, if Jesus died for the world as the scriptures clearly teach then the world has the opportunity to come……IF THEY WILL!
    Through the preaching of the Word and the HOly Spirit.
    Gods Spirit woos them, but if they reject or refuse, then that is their freewill choice, if they respond to Gods Spirit…as I did…and accept, then that is also their freewill choice.
    Regeneration comes AFTER faith and belief, NOT before.

    IT CANNOT! A SINFILLED HEART CANNOT COME TO FAITH UNLESS THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS OPENED THAT HEART TO RECEIVE TO WORD OF GOD. THAT DOESN’T MAKE ANY SENSE AND I DON’T THINK GOD MAKES SENSE ALL THE TIME, BUT IN THIS CASE FAITH AND BELIEF BEFORE A HEART THAT HAS BEEN PREPARED OR OPENED AND RECEPTIVE MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL LOGICALLY OR ILLOGICALLY. A PERSON WILL NOT BELIEVE AND HAVE FAITH WITH A HARD HEART….THAT HEART HAS TO BE SOFTENED FIRST. WHENEVER PHARAOH LET THE ISRAELITES GO, DID GOD NOT SOFTEN PHARAOH’S HEART IN ORDER THAT HE WOULD LET THEM GO…THEN HE HARDENED HIS HEART AGAIN IN THE END. GOD HAS CONTROL OVER OUR HEARTS. WE CANNOT BELIEVE WITH A HARD HEART. WE CANNOT HAVE FAITH IN SOMETHING WITH A HARD HEART. THE POWER AND WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT MUST TAKE PLACE FIRST.

    Again, this would make us into robots or puppets.
    God pulls the strings and we dance. NO NO NO!

    NO IT DOESN’T! YOU ARE BEING WAY TO SIMPLISTIC AND LOGICAL AGAIN. I CANNOT MAKE YOU SEE THIS…I AM NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT:-)

    I’v made so many notes, sometimes during the night, something comes to me and I have to write it down!

    GOOD, THEN WRITE A BOOK ON YOUR REFUTION OF THE BIBLICAL DOCTRINE OF CALVINISTIC THEOLOGY….I WILL BUY A COPY.

    Just one more thing and then I have to go out.
    If all salvation is fixed in concrete, and man has no choice whatsoever in whether he goes to Heaven or hell, be saved or remain in sin, then what is God waiting for? Why is He longsuffering? Why does the scripture say…He is waiting and is longsuffering…NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO ETERNAL LIFE.????

    YOU HAVE MADE NO NEW POINT…YOU KEEP GOING IN A TINY CIRCLE.

    He is waiting for (HIS CHOSEN) people to accept His salvation.

    HAVE I NOT EXPLAINED THIS TO YOU AT LEAST TWICE. THE LONGSUFFERING OR WAITING IS FOR EACH OF HIS CHOSEN OR ELECT TO BE SAVED. IT IS NO MORE DIFFICULT THAN THAT. I KNOW I HAVE STATED THIS AT LEAST TWICE BEFORE….BUT FOR THRILLS I HAVE STATED IT AGAIN.

    Have a nice day!
    Maz

    I WILL APPROVE YOUR COMMENTS IF YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER, BUT I MOST LIKELY WILL NOT COMMENT BACK AS MUCH…I HAVE TO MOVE ON, I AM DIZZY SPINNING IN THIS SAME CIRCLE.

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  40. Maz said

    Scott:
    It seems you are’nt hearing what I’v said either.
    I have had to repeat things I’v said aswell, so I guess we’re both going round in our own circles???
    But I do want a chance to answer a couple of points and if you feel this is becoming tiresome (I can sense your annoyance and feel a little sarcasm coming through) then we shall call it a day. Argument for arguments sake is not profitable for anyone.

    1) I KNOW MAN CAN’T SAVE HIMSELF, IT IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, but REGENERATION CANNOT HAPPEN UNTIL FAITH IS EXERCISED BY BELIEF.

    HOW CAN A SINFUL HEART THAT IS HARD TOWARDS GOD AND WILL NOT COME TO GOD HAVE FAITH IN GOD? IT CANNOT AND WILL NOT UNTIL IT HAS BEEN SOFTENED BY GOD. THAT IS SO SIMPLE AND WE HAVE BEEN AROUND THIS CIRCLE OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

    2) FAITH COMES BY HEARING….HEARING THE WORD… as you illustrated with the atheists. The preaching saved them…they received the truth and accepted it by faith…THEN THEY WERE BORN-AGAIN.

    WHAT IS YOUR POINT HERE? THESE WERE APPARENTLY PART OF GOD’S ELECT, HIS CHOSEN ONES….HE REGENERATED THEIR HARD HEARTS TO A SOFTENED HEART…THEY HEARD THE WORD OF GOD AND WERE SAVED, BORN AGAIN…WHAT IS SO HARD ABOUT THAT? THE PREACHING DID NOT SAVE THEM….THE PREACHING DELIVERED THE WORD OF GOD THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT USED TO SAVE THEM. DON’T KEEP PLAYING WITH MY WORDS HERE. NOTHING IN THAT I SAID CHANGES THE DOCTRINE OF GOD HAS CHOSEN HIS PEOPLE. I DON’T MEAN TO SOUND ANNOYED I AM JUST READY FOR SOMETHING NEW IN WAYS OF QUESTIONS….IT HAS BEEN THE SAME ONES DAY AFTER DAY. IT IS ALWAYS THE SAME ONES FROM EACH ONE THAT DOES NOT ADHERE TO THIS BELIEF. I MAY NOT EXPLAIN MYSELF WELL, BUT I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE. I KNOW HOW THIS ALL TAKES PLACE AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT.

    3) How can anyone be born-again first (regenerated by the Holy Spirit) before receiving the Word (seed)(that produces the faith to believe in their heart) and then get it stolen by Satan? (Mark 4)….once saved always saved??? Satan couldn’t touch it once they are regenerated.

    I HAVE EXPLAINED THIS SO MANY TIMES I DON’T HAVE TIME TO GO BACK THROUGH THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN…SORRY.

    4) I am not getting my info from ”crazy” sites.

    THAT IS GOOD, BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN SOME THAT SHOULD BE BANNED FROM THE INTERNET.

    5)Bull???????????????

    6)Back to Pharoahs heart…..God KNEW HIM BEFORE HE WAS BORN…and HE KNEW HIS HEART.

    GOD KNEW HIM BEFORE HE WAS BORN OF COURSE. HE KNEW PHARAOH’S HEART WOULD BE HARDENED BY HIM BEFORE IT HAPPENED. HE DID NOT LOOK INTO THE FUTURE AND SAY “OH, HE WILL HAVE A HARD HEART, SO I WILL USE HIM TO LET MY PEOPLE GO AND THEN GO AFTER THEM SO I WILL DESTROY HIM” THAT TAKES AWAY THE OMNISCIENCE OF GOD. I HAVE A FEELING YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE OMINISCIENCE OF GOD.

    7) Does God really need to ”use” Satan as a pawn to do His will? To blind people against His own Son and Who He is??

    HE DOES NOT NEED ANY OF US. YET, HE USES WHOMEVER HE WANTS TO. HE USES US TO DELIVER HIS MESSAGE..DOES HE NEED US TO DELVIER HIS MESSAGE, NO! AS JESUS WAS COMING OVER THE HILL BEFORE JERUSALEM AND TEH CROWDS STARTED PRAISING HIM, HE STATED THAT “IF THESE DO NOT PRAISE ME AND WORSHIP ME, THE ROCKS WITH CRY OUT”…THAT IS MY PARAPHRASE THERE. GOD IS A MIGHTY GOD AND HE DOES WHAT HE CHOOSES TO DO….WE CANNOT PUT LIMITS ON HIM BASED ON OUR “FREE WILL” AS YOU SAY.

    8)Sovereign God….HE IS. But He is NOT set in concrete like a statue.

    WHAT IS THAT ABOUT? WHO SAID HE WAS A STATUE? GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY MEANS WE ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE HIM. GOD IS THE YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND TOMORROW. HE IS NOT A GOD WHO IS “HIP” KEEPING WITH THE TIMES. HE IS NOT BOUND BY OUR TIME AND OUR WAYS.

    9)What is God waiting for if He has the power to just change a persons heart when He wants? He could change all the hearts He has chosen and finish his work today. But I believe He is waiting on the lost to RESPOND TO THE SPIRITS CALLING. THEIR FREEWILL.

    SOME MAY NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN BORN YET, SOME MAY NOT HAVE COME TO THE GOD ORDAINED TIME FOR THEM TO BE SAVED. GOD HAS NOT ONLY ORDAINED WHO WILL BE SAVED, BUT THE TIME IN WHICH THEY WILL BE SAVED. IT COULD BE THEY COME TO CHRIST THROUGH AN ACCIDENT, TRAGIC EVENT IN THEIR LIVES, OR WHATEVER THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. WE ARE NOT GOD…WHY DO WE THINK WE HAVE THE ANSWER TO WHEN SOMEONE SHOULD GET SAVED. GOD IS WAITING FOR THOSE ELECT TO BE SAVED….AS I SAID BEFORE GOD ORDAINS HIS WILL NOT OURS.

    10)I DID NOT SAY THAT ATHEISTS COULD NOT BE SAVED.
    But many an unwise ‘Christian’ or ‘Church’ can put people right off Christianity.

    WHAT IS OUR JOB? IT IS TO DELIVER THE WORD OF GOD, PERIOD! WE PREACH GOD’S WORD AS IT IS…WE DO NOT EDIT IT OR ADD TO IT…JUST PREACH IT LIKE IT IS. IF IT PUTS PEOPLE OFF THAT IS NOT OUR PROBLEM. THAT SEEMS HARSH, BUT THE CROSS IS OFFENSIVE TO PEOPLE. IN THIS WORLD YOU CAN TALK ABOUT GOD ALL DAY LONG, BUT WHEN YOU BRING UP JESUS PEOPLE GET DEFENSIVE AND DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT JESUS.

    11)”The sinfilled heart cannot come to faith unless the Holy Spirit has opened that heart to receive…”
    I agree!!! BUT…when that little seed of the Word has gone into that open heart, (regenerated??) Satan can come IMMEDIATELY to take away that word that is sown in that heart by the Holy Spirit. How is that possible? (Similar to No.3) Sorry, seem to hav repeated myself.

    Scott, how can I honestly, as an evangelist, witness to the lost and tell them about Jesus being the Way, the TRuth and the Life, and that He died for them and He wants them saved….if they havn’t been ‘chosen’??

    YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THEY HAVE BEENN CHOSEN OR NOT…THAT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO KNOW THIS….YOUR JOB IS TO PROCLAIM THE GOSPEL TO THEM. IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO SAVE THEM OR GET A DECISION FROM THEM….THIS IS THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. I HAVE SAID THIS OVER AND OVER AND OVER THAT WE DELIVER THE MESSAGE…THE FULL MESSAGE OF GOD. THIS IS WHAT DELIVERS THE POWER NOT YOU OR I. IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO GET DECISIONS. IT NEVER HAS BEEN OUR JOB TO GET DECISIONS….IT IS OUR JOB TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE. YOU MAY NEVER KNOW IF A PERSON IS OF THE ELECT OR NOT….GOD DID NOT INTEND THAT WE KNOW. THIS IS WHAT I WAS TELLING YOU EARLIER THAT THIS IS THE UNDERLYING WORK OF HOW GOD WORKS, NOT OUTWARDLY…..IT IS NOT FOR US TO GO AROUND WONDERING IF SOMEONE IS ELECT OR NOT. YOU ARE SPEAKING OF EXTREME CALVINIST OF WHOM I HAVE NEVER MET BEFORE, BUT I AM SURE THEY EXIST, THAT TAKE THINGS TO THE EXTREME, BUT I AM NOT OF THOSE NOR ARE ANY OF THOSE THEOLOGIANS I LISTED. YOU DO NOT CHOOSE THEM…SHARE THE GOSPEL WITH PEOPLE AND LET GOD DO HIS WORK…AS I OFTEN TELL PEOPLE “PREACH THE GOSPEL AND GET OUT OF THE WAY”.

    ”Thou shalt NOT bare false witness….”
    I would be witnessing falsely, I’d be using the Word of God deceitefully, and I can’t give the excuse…well, I don’t know who is chosen and who isn’t.

    YOU KNOW THIS IS NOT TRUE…NOW YOU ARE GRASPING FOR THINGS. THIS VERSE “BEARING FALSE WITNESS” HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO YOU WITNESS TO….WHAT THEOLOGY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT HERE. GO BACK AND UNDERSTAND THAT VERSE. THIS DOES NOT EVEN DESERVE COMMENT REALLY. WE ARE COMMANDED IN MATTHEW TO SPEAD THE GOSPEL…IT DOES SAY ONLY TO THE ELECT…WE ARE TO SPREAD IT TO EVERYONE…GOD KNOWS WHO IT WILL FALL ON THAT WILL BE SAVED. YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD A CALVINIST OR OTHERWISE EVER USE THAT LINE OF THOUGHT…COME ON STAY REAL HERE. BEARING FALSE WITNESS IF WHAT JW’S AND MORMONS DO…THEY TEACH AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BOOK AND OF AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GOD…YOU CANNOT USE THAT…YOUR ARE STRETCHING FOR THINGS WITH THIS ONE.

    Well, that’s it. I think all my notes have been used.
    If you want out, I will acquiesce.

    But you still havn’t explained how God says that HE WANTS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT. That goes right against Calvin belief, along with other scriptures.

    IT DOES NOT WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND IT IN ITS PROPER UNDERSTANDING. THEY ARE EXTREMES OF EVERY BELIEF. YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF CALVINISM IS OF THE EXTREMIST PARTS. THE MAJORITY OF CALVINIST DO NOT TAKE THINGS TO THE EXTREME. HOWEVER, TO SAY THAT GOD WANTS ALL MEN OR WISHES THAT ALL MEN TO REPENT DOES NOT MEAN THE RESULT IS THAT ALL MEN WILL REPENT. YOU CAN KEEP REPEATING THIS ALL DAY LONG…I HAVE NEVER SIDE-STEPPED ANY SCRIPTURE YOU HAVE PUT BEFORE ME HERE. EVERY SINGLE BIT OF SCRIPTURE YOU LAYED OUT CAN BE AND HAS BEEN TIED IN NICELY WITH THE CALVINISTIC DOCTRINE. I DO NOT FEAR ANY VERSE YOU PULL OUT AS SO LONG AS YOU KEEP IN CONTEXT. AS A MATTER OF FACT I GONE OVER SEVERAL VERSES TWO OR THREE TIMES AS YOU ASKED ABOUT THEM 2 OR 3 TIMES…MY ANSWER WAS THE SAME EACH TIME. I EXPLAINED THIS QUESTION YOU HAVE ASKED MORE THAN ONCE….GO BACK THROUGH EACH STRAND OF COMMENTS…EVERY ONE.

    AGAIN, I DO NOT MEAN TO COME ACROSS AS ANNOYED, BUT IF YOU KNEW HOW MANY TIMES I GO THROUGH THESE SAME QUESTIONS AND THEN I HAVE ADDRESSED SOME OF THESE WITH YOU MORE THAN ONCE…IT GETS BORING AFTER A WHILE…NOTHING NEW COMES UP.

    THE MAIN POINT IS EVEN THOUGH YOU THINK YOU UNDERSTAND CALVINISM YOU REALLY DO NOT. YOU UNDERSTAND AN EXTREME FORM OF IT, BUT THAT IS NOT HOW THE MAJORITY TAKE IT. THERE ARE SOME THAT BELIEVE WE SHOULD NOT EVEN EVANGELIZE…BUT THIS CANNOT BE SINCE JESUS COMMANDED US TO EVANGELIZE…HE TOLD US TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE AND IT IS A PRIVILEDGE TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE. TO UNDERSTAND THIS IN ITS ENTIRETY YOU WOULD KNOW THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE ROBOTS. YOU WOULD ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT WE HOLD GOD IN THE HIGHEST HONOR…IF THAT IS HERESY THAN SO BE IT…IT IS NOT HERESY AGAINST GOD TO HONOR HIM…MAYBE HERESY TO THE WORLD. WE CERTAINLY DO NOT BELIEVE IN MAN HONORING THEOLOGY. YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IN MANY CASES WERE WE READ “ALL” IT IS NOT REALLY SPEAKING OF “ALL” BUT CAN MEAN MANY OR CAN BE SPEAKING OF ALL THE ROMANS OR ALL THE GREEKS OR ALL THE JEWS OR ALL THE GENTILES OR MAYBE ALL THE REGION THEY ARE IN BUT NOT NECESSARILY ALWAYS ALL THE WORLD. YOU HAVE TO STUDY IT IN ITS FULL INTENT THROUGH THE GREEK AND HEBREW.

    THE THING IS WE EVANGELIZE ALL WE ARE PROMPTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TO EVANGELIZE TO OUTSIDE THE CHURCH WALLS AND DELIVER THE WORD OF GOD BY EXPOUNDING ON IT INSIDE THE CHURCH. THIS COULD BE MANY OR ONE PERSON, WE DO NOT DETERMINE BEFORE HAND IF SOMEONE LOOKS ELECT OR NOT…THAT IS FALSE, BECAUSE HOW DO WE KNOW WHO IS AND WHO IS NOT. WE TAKE IT AS A TREMENDOUS PRIVILEDGE TO SHARE THE GOSPEL WITH UNBELIEVERS FOR OUR LORD. WE DO NOT STAND THERE TO PERSUADE THEM OR BEG THEM, BECAUSE THAT IS NOT HOW THE NEW TESTAMENT DESCRIBES EVANGELISM. WE DELIVER THE WORD OF GOD…IT IS RECEIVED POSITIVELY BY THE ELECT OF GOD UNTO SALVATION WHETHER IMMEDIATELY AT THAT MOMENT OR SOME DAY IN THE FUTURE…THAT IS GOD’S WORK NOT MINE. IT IS NOT RECEIVED IN THE HEART BY THE NON-ELECT….THEY HEAR IT WITH THEIR EARS BUT IT IS NOT ETERNALIZED IN ANYWAY IF THEIR HEARTS ARE HARD. SOME OF THE ELECT CAN HEAR AND ETERNALIZE BUT MAYBE NOT ACT ON IT THAT VERY MOMENT, BUT LATER GO HOME AND BELIEVE…THAT IS PERFECTLY WITHIN GOD’S GREAT POWER…BUT THE NON-ELECT WILL NOT ETERNALIZE IT ALL AND WILL NEVER RESPOND POSITIVELY. DO WE EVER GIVE UP ON SOMEONE? NO, YET, WE DO NOT BOTHER THEM PERSONALLY ABOUT IT. WE JUST KEEP DELIVERING THE WORD OF GOD AND ALLOWING THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DO THE WORK IN HIS TIME. WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WHICH GOD GIVES BY HIS GRACE TO HIS ELECT CAN BE LOST. TRUE BELIEVERS ARE NOT LOST. SOME PROCLAIMING DECISIONS MAY BE LOST, BUT NONE THAT CHRIST KNOWS. THOSE THAT CHRIST KNOWS ARE HIS FOREVER.

    THERE ARE MANY THINGS WITHIN SCRIPTURES I MAY NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND. SOME OF WHAT I BELIEVE I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW HE DOES IT, BUT I DO NOT QUESTION HIM ABOUT HIS PLAN. HE HAS THE PERFECT SYSTEM AND PERFECT PLAN. I DO KNOW THAT CHRIST DIED FOR MY SIN AND PAID THAT PRICE SO THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY THAT AWEFUL PRICE. I KNOW THAT SOMEDAY I WILL SPEND AN ETERNITY WITH HIM, WITHOUT QUESTION. I BELIEVE THAT I CAN NEVER LOSE MY SALVATION…I AM IN GOD’S HAND AND NO ONE CAN SNATCH ME AWAY FROM HIM. I WILL CONTINUE TO SHARE WITH ALL I CAN ABOUT THE WONDERFUL WORK ON THE CROSS JESUS ACCOMPLISHED. THAT HE DID NOT STAY DEAD, BUT ROSE FROM THAT COLD DARK TOMB. THE MESSAGE DELIVERED TO THE LOST IS THAT THEY CAN BE SAVED BY GOD’S GRACE IF THEY WILL REPENT OF THEIR SINS, AND BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR PERSONAL SAVIOR SO THAT HE BECOMES THE LORD OF THEIR LIFE. THOSE WHO TRULY YEARN TO BE SAVED AND WANT ASSISTANCE IN THAT I WILL GLADLY INTRODUCE THEM TO JESUS…THOSE THAT EAGERLY SAY “NO” I WILL LEAVE ALONE….EITHER IT WAS NOT THEIR TIME OR IT WILL NEVER BE THEIR TIME. I UNDERSTAND THIS IS NOT MY JOB TO GET A DECISION FROM THEM. I DO NOT GO AROUND AS NO OTHER CALVINIST I KNOW OF DOES THIS EITHER, WONDERING WHO IS ELECT AND WHO IS NOT OR WHETHER GOD HAS REGENERATED THEIR HEARTS OR NOT. THIS IS THE UNDERLYING WORK OF GOD THAT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS. MY BUSINESS IS TO DELIVER GOD’S WORD AS IT IS WRITTEN AND HELP PEOPLE APPLY IT TO THEIR LIVES. THIS MAY NOT BE THE CALVINISM YOU READ ABOUT OR HAVE EXPERIENCED, BUT THIS IS WHAT THIS DOCTRINE IS ALL ABOUT. EVERYTHING ELSE CAN BE ARGUED ABOUT OVER AND OVER AS TO HOW THIS ALL HAPPENS. THE FACT IS WE ARE TO DELIVER THE MESSAGE OF GOD AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. WE ARE NOT TO DESCRIMINATE AS TO WHO THAT MESSAGE GOES OUT TO. THOSE WHO DO THAT ARE NOT TAKING THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD AND APPLYING IT. AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE THERE ARE SOME EXTREME FORMS OF CALVINISM THAT DESTORTS EVERYTHING WE ARE TRYING TO DO. THEY GO TO SUCH AN EXTREME THAT I QUESTION WHETHER THEY REALLY KNOW GOD OR NOT, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT KNOW GOD AND BELIEVE IN SOME OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE…GOD HAS A PLAN OF ACTION FOR US AND WE ARE TO WORK THAT PLAN. YET, THEIR ARE EXTREMES THE OTHER DIRECTION AS WELL TO THE POINT THAT SOME BELIEVE EVERYONE WILL EVENTUALLY BE SAVED, TEACHING UNIVERSALISM WHICH IS NOT BIBLICAL EITHER. I HEAR OF SOME THAT DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE IN A LITERAL HELL….WELL SATAN AND DEMONS WILL CERTAINLY NOT BE SAVED AND LIVE IN HEAVEN WITH US, SO WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THEM? ANYWAY, MUCH WILL NEVER BE AGREED TO HERE BETWEEN US. I MET AND READ NUMEROUS TESTIMONIES OF MANY PENTECOSTALS THAT AFTER STUDYING ON THE TRUE CALVNISTIC TEACHINGS (NOT THE EXTREMIST) ARE NOW OF THAT BELIEF AND HAVE NEVER EXPEREINCED SUCH FREEDOM AND JOY IN THEIR LIVES. I MET MANY OF THEM AND THEY ARE EVANGELIZING WITH SUCH FREEDOM AND ACTUALLY HAVING GREATER RESULTS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE THAT STIGMA OVER THEM THAT THEY MUST SEE CERTAIN PEOPLE SAVED….THAT IS UP TO GOD NOT US AND THEY ARE REALIZING IT NOW. SO, THEY SIMPLY DELIVER THE MESSAGE TRUTHFULLY TO PEOPLE AND IF THOSE PEOPLE ACCEPT CHRIST THEN TO GOD BE THE GLORY, IF THEY DO NOT THEN ALL WE CAN DO IS HOPE THAT SOMEDAY THEY WILL BE SAVED, BUT THAT IS NOT FOR US TO WORRY ABOUT. THIS IS SUCH A RELEASE. THAT IS WHAT I EXPERIENCED WHEN I REALIZED THE TRUE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH. IT HAD THE SAME EFFECT ON ME AND GAVE ME A GREATER DESIRE TO EVANGELIZE THE WORLD. BEFORE I NEVER HAD THAT. YOU MAY NOT HEAR MANY CALVINIST TALK THIS WAY, BUT IF THEY ARE TRUE TO THIS BELIEF THAT WILL BE EXCITED ABOUT TELLING THE WORLD ABOUT CHRIST. CHUCK CERTAINLY BELIEVES THIS WAY AND THE MAJORITY OF THE 7,000 THAT ATTEND OUR CHURCH EACH WEEK. WE HAVE MISSIONS IN INDIA THAT ARE TRAINING PASTORS HOW TO EVANGELIZE THEIR PART OF THE WORLD…AND WE ARE NOW WORKING IN A DOZEN OR SO OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD IN CONJUNCTION WITH “INSIGHT FOR LIVING MINISTRIES”. IF A CALVINIST IS SUPPOSE TO SET ON THE COUCH AND WAIT FOR HIS TIME TO GO TO HEAVEN AND NOT BE CONCERNED WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD, THEN I AM A REBEL CALVINIST, BUT THE FACT IS THAT IS THE DESTORTED VIEW OF CALVINISM…IT IS CERTAINLY NOT WHAT THE T.U.L.I.P. IS TALKING ABOUT. IT IS NOT WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES. IT IS NOT WHAT MARTIN LUTHER RISKED HIS LIFE FOR OR JOHN CALVIN OR JONAHTON EDWARDS OR GEORGE WHITEFIELD OR ANY OTHER PROPONENT OF THIS THEOLOGY.

    I HAVE DELIVERED ABOUT ALL I CAN TO YOU ON THIS. I BELIEVE GOD’S WORD IS GOD BREATHED AND GOD INSPIRED. HE DIRECTED EACH WRITER TO WRITE WHAT THEY DID IN TRUTH AND WITHOUT THEOLOGOICAL ERROR. I HAVE NEVER DOUBTED IT FOR ONE INSTANCE. I MAY HAVE A FEW MORE VITAL THINGS TO MENTION LATER ON SO STAY TUNED.

    GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR MINISTRY,
    SCOTT

  41. Scott said

    THE STRAND OF COMMENTS IS VERY LONG:-) I WANTED TO SHARE ONE LAST DISECTION OF 2 PETER 3:8-9 BECAUSE I MAY NOT HAVE BEEN AS CLEAR. WHEN SPEAKING OF HOW THE WORD “ALL” AND “EVERYONE” CAN THROW US OFF.

    IN VERSE 8 IT IS SPEAKING OF “DEAR FRIENDS” WHICH ARE THE PEOPLE HE IS ADDRESSING HERE DOWN FURTHER WHEN HE STATES “HE IS PATIENT WITH ‘YOU’. (THE “YOU” IS THE DEAR FRIENDS IN THE FIRST PART OF VERSE 8). TO KNOW THIS FOR SURE BACK UP TO VERSE 1 IN CHAPTER 3…YOU SEE “DEAR FRIENDS” AGAIN. HE IS ADDRESSING THE ELECT. BUT YOU SAY WELL, HOW DO WE KNOW. BACK UP A FEW PAGES TO 1 PETER 1:1…WHO IS THE “DEAR FRIENDS”? IT SAYS “TO GOD’S ELECT”. NOW, THAT WILL NOT CONVINCE YOU EITHER AND I KNOW THAT, BUT I CAN TAKE THIS FURTHER AS WE LOOK AT THE GREEK AND HEBREW MEANINGS OF A FEW WORDS IN THIS SAME TEXT. IT IS AMAZING ONCE PUT INTO CONTEXT WERE THIS ALL LEADS, BUT IT IS FACT NOT FICTION.

    WE SEE IN VERSE 9 THE WORD “SOME” WHICH IN THE GREEK AND HEBREW IS THE MEANING “CERTAIN ONES”. THEN WE GO DOWN A BIT FURTHER TO THE WORD “ANYONE” WHICH ALSO HAS THE SAME GREEK AND HEBREW WORD MEANING “CERTAIN ONES”. SO, YOU CAN READ THAT TEXT TO SAY:

    “AS ‘CERTAIN ONES’ UNDERSTAND SLOWNESS. HE IS PATIENT WITH ‘DEAR FRIENDS THE ELECT’ NOT WANTING ‘CERTAIN ONES’ TO PERISH, BUT ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE.”

    THAT SOUNDS A BIT DIFFERENT DOESN’T IT. NOW, THAT WORD NEAR THE END “ALL OR EVERYONE IN SOME TEXT” STILL HAS MANY PERPLEXTED, I KNOW…IT KEPT ME PERPLEXED FOR YEARS. HOWEVER, IN THE GREEK THIS WORD IS “PAS” WHICH ACTUALLY IN THIS TEXTUAL SENTENCE MEANS “COLLECTIVELY OR SOME OF ALL TYPES” MEANING SOME OF THE GREEKS, SOME OF THE JEWS, SOME OF THE RICH, SOME OF THE POOR. NOW, WE CAN READ THE LAST PART OF THAT VERSE TO READ,

    “HE IS PATIENT WITH HIS ELECT NOT WANTING CERTAIN ONES TO PERISH, BUT SOME OF ALL TYPES OF PEOPLE TO COME TO REPENTANCE.”

    THAT READS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT WHEN IT IS READ IN THE COMPLETE GREEK AND HEBREW MEANING. THE ELECT COME FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE NOT JUST THE JEWS OR GENTILES…THE ELECT IS FROM EVERY KIND OF PEOPLE ON THE EARTH, YET THEY ARE STILL HIS ELECT.

    TO FURTHER EXPOUND ON THIS TEXT LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT JOHN 17:2,9-12.

    IN VERSE 2 WE FIND THE WORD “ALL” AGAIN TWICE IN THAT PASSAGE. THIS “ALL” IN THIS PASSAGE HAS THE SAME GREEK AND HEBREW MEANING AS IT WAS OVER IN 2 PETER 3:9….”SOME OF ALL TYPES”…THEN INTERSTING IS THE HOW VERSE 9 GETS REAL DIRTY FOR MANY PEOPLE.

    JESUS SPEAKING HERE, “I PRAY FOR THEM” WHO, MY DEAR FRIENDS THE ELECT WHO BELIEVED IN HIM. “I AM ‘NOT’ PRAYING FOR THE WORLD, BUT FOR THOSE WHO YOU HAVE GIVEN TO ME, FOR THEY ARE YOURS.” “THOSE” AND “THEM” IN BOTH PLACES IS REFERRED TO AS THE ELECT OF GOD. THEN IN VERSE 12 “NONE HAS BEEN LOST EXCEPT THE ONE DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION. “NONE” OF THE ELECT HAVE LOST OR WILL LOSE THEIR SALVATION. WHAT CHRIST SAVES WILL NOT BE LOST. THE ONE “DOOMED” HERE WAS JUDAS…HE APPEARED TO BE OF CHRIST BUT WAS “DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION” BY WHOM….GOD! THIS WAS SET OUT FROM THE BEGINNING. WHEN I STUDIED THIS SO CLOSELY IN ITS PROPER TEXT AND MEANING IT WAS AMAZING TO ME HOW IT JUST BROUGHT TO LIGHT THE TRUTH SPELLED OUT HERE. IT MAY NOT HAVE THAT SAME EFFECT ON YOU, I DON’T KNOW, BUT THIS WAS EYE OPENING FOR ME AND HELPED GET OVER MY PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS ABOUT GOD AND WHAT I THOUGHT WAS IRON CLAD AGAINST THE CALVINIST TEACHINGS.

    ONE FINAL NOTE I FAILED TO MENTION IS THAT STRONG CONCORDANCE SYSTEM STATES THAT IN SCRIPTURE THE WORD “WORLD AND ALL” HAS 7 TO 8 DIFFERENT SENSES TO WHICH THOSE WORDS ARE USED. IT ALSO NOTES THAT VERY RARELY DOES THE WORD “ALL” REALLY MEAN TO INDICATE “ALL AS EVERYTHING OR EVERYONE”. THIS IS WHAT I MEANT BY BEING CAREFUL ABOUT HOW YOU READ THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE WHEN IT RELATES TO THE WORD “ALL” AND EVEN “WORLD”.

    I HOPE YOU ENJOY DISECTING SCRIPTURE LIKE THAT…I DO!

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  42. Maz said

    Scott: I have found that we seem to end up talking at cross purposes or misunderstanding what we mean, somehow neither of us are getting the others point of view.
    When I said about witnessing falsely to people, you didn’t seem to catch what I was saying. Surely Scott, we would be lying to someone who has not been chosen if we told them they were and that Jesus died for them. I don’t know how else to say it. We are witnessing an untruth to them…..that is why I truly believe that all people can be saved (and therefore we can witness to all without deceit) and have a free will to come if they WILL to (not on their own, but with the drawing of the Holy Spirit, who stirs their hearts when they receive the Word of truth). I still believe they have a choice to accept or reject at that point.
    I really think we have run the course.
    I have enjoyed the debate in some ways and been a little frustrated in others (as possibly you have too).
    Whoever is right (and you will say you are) or whoever is wrong (you’ll say I am), it doesn’t bother me what people think (much!) but I trust the Holy Spirit will enlighten us as we seek the truth in our daily walk with Him.
    Certainly, I can say, for me personally, that I did not come to the Lord through anyones preaching or witnessing, the Holy Spirit sought me and called me…..then, I…I…I…responded freely. So He knows that I love Him freely for what He has done for me.
    The Lord bless and keep you Scott, and one day we shall meet in Heaven with our Lord and have a good laugh together.
    Maz.

    YES, I HAVE NO DOUBT WE WILL BOTH BE THERE FOR ALL ETERNITY. BE SURE TO READ THE DISECTION OF 2 PETER 3:8-9 AND THEN JOHN 3:16…THESE WERE BOTH VITAL IN MY BELIEF…WHETHER IT CONVINCES YOU OR NOT, I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY NEAT ONCE YOU BREAK THINGS DOWN INTO THE GREEK AND HEBREW MEANINGS OF THE WORDS THAT THROW US OFF.

    IN CHRIST, SCOTT

  43. Scott said

    ANOTHER GREAT BREAK DOWN OF THE INTERNATIONAL SLOGAN VERSE THAT EVERYONE HAS USED FOR AGES IS JOHN 3:16. THIS IS WHAT WE WOULD CALL A “BROAD” VERSE, MEANING THAT THE MEANING CAN BE BROAD, SO IT TAKES MORE NARROW VERSES SOMETIMES TO HELP US INTERPRET THESE BROAD VERSES. HOWEVER, “WORLD” IN THE GREEK AND HEBREW HAS AROUND 8 DIFFERENT POSSIBLE MEANINGS. SO, AS WOULD BE EXPECTED THIS THROWS ALOT OF PEOPLE OFF THAT HAVE NO CLUE HOW TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE SO THEY SIMPLY TAKE EVERYTHING AS IT IS. JOHN 3:16-17 IS A WONDERFUL TEXT.

    IN THIS TEXT THE GREEK EXPERTS SITE THAT THE MEANING OF “WORLD” IN THESE TWO VERSES MEANS “BELIEVERS ONLY”. SO, READ THE VERSE THIS WAY,

    “FOR GOD SO LOVED THE “BELIEVERS ONLY” THAT HE GAVES HIS BEGOTTEN SON THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.”

    THAT MAKES THAT SOUND SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT DOESN’T IT. SOMETHING ALWAYS POINTED OUT FROM SCRIPTURE IS THAT SECTION OF THIS TEXT “WHOSOEVER OR WHOEVER WILL”. THAT DOES NOT REFUTE OR SUPPORT ELECTION EITHER WAY. IF ELECTION WAS NOT TRUE, “WHOSOEVER WILL” BE SAVED. IF ELECTION IS TRUE, “WHOSOEVER WILL” BE SAVED. IT MATTER NOT EITHER WAY, SO IT CAN STAND ALONE AND SUPPORT ITSELF WITHOUT ANYONES HELP EITHER WAY. WHOEVER TRULY BELIEVES IN CHRIST WILL BE SAVED.

    YOU CAN TAKE THAT MEANING TO JOHN 1:29, 3:16-17, AND 6:33 PLUS A NUMBER OF OTHER VERSES THAT THE GREEK WORD “KOSMOS” FOR WORLD MEANS IN THESE PARTICULAR TEXT “BELIEVERS ONLY”.

    IN A NUMBER OF OTHER TEXT WE FIND WHO JESUS DIED FOR SPECIFICALLY, WHICH HE STATES “MY SHEEP” JOHN 10:27, “MY CHURCH” MATTHEW 16:18, OR “THE ELECT” MATTHEW 24:22,24,31, MARK 13:20,22,27, 2 TIM 5:21, TITUS 1:1, 1 PETER 1:1.

    THE MAIN THEME FOR JOHN 3 WAS TO SHOW US THAT GOD LOVES PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE AND ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD…NOT JUST THE JEWS AND NOT JUST THE GENTILES AND THAT PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER WOULD BE SAVED. YOU SEE DURING THIS TIME WE HAVE TO PUT THIS IN PROSPECTIVE THAT THE JEWS THOUGHT ONLY THEY WOULD GO TO HEAVEN OR SINCE CHRIST COMING THAT NOW THE JEWS WOULD NOT GO, BUT THE GENTILES OR THE GREEKS WOULD GO TO HEAVEN. BUT GOD WANTED PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT, NO, PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER WOULD BE SAVED. HIS ELECT IS NOT LIMITED TO ONE CLASS OF PEOPLE.

    SO, IN CONCLUSION WE HAVE TO STUDY ALL OF THIS IN PROPER CONTEXT. THAT IS HARD FOR THE MULTITUDES TO DO I KNOW BECAUSE THEY EITHER DO NOT HAVE THE TIME OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TO DO THIS OR SIMPLY DO NOT CARE. I FEAR MANY JUST DO NOT CARE IF THEY GET IT RIGHT OR NOT…THIS IS THE SAD PART.

    IT IS A BEAUTIFUL THING TO HAVE GOD LOVE US.

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  44. Maz said

    Scott: I have difficulty with the fact that you have explained that many verses that would counteract Calvinism are actually translated wrong, that those who translated the KJV and who died to get it to the common people, got the translation of the original language, wrong in some very important places. So everyone who has read the KJV of the Bible has been reading error in these particular verses..”Whosoever” and especially John 3 v 16 which is called the ”gospel in a nut shell”.
    Scott, if we cannot trust the translation of this Bible, what can we trust?
    I believe that God inspired or atleast led the translators to the truth of the original meaning to be able to translate as closely as they could without changing it.
    How can I trust what I read in the English, if there is doubt placed on so much of what I read and believe as doctrine?
    I wasn’t really going to continue, but I do want things clear in my mind about what you are saying and believing, because I DO want to know if something I believe is not correct. But the very translation I read is now in doubt.
    I have tried to learn greek, some, a little….and I would love to learn Hebrew, but surely, we do not have to learn the original languages to know the truth contained in the scriptures? It is important to understand the Greek and Hebrew, and I do understand that in the Greek language they have more words than we do and some English words have multiple meanings in the Greek.
    Scott, is there a Bible in existence that has the original meaning in English?…….I have an amplified Bible, which I got for this reason, to try and understand the verses fully.
    But the ”ALL MEN EVERYWHERE” scripture that you ‘disected’ seems to say completely different from the KJV or authorised. It’s changed it’s whole meaning. And you say other verses are like this too.
    This can be a very troubling fact for some christians.
    (Not for me I add) I really believe that what I have read thus far in my Christian life has become a living reality within my spirit….I don’t say I know everything, that would be both presumptuous and arrogant. No, every time I read my Bible I learn something new. But even though it is new it doesn’t change what I already believe, it just enriches it.
    The ‘world’ meaning believers, just does not sound right to me. I know that ‘world’ could be tranlated ‘age’ or a system, but believers? I will have to ask my Pastor about this one.

    So God did not love the whole world? Boy, that is an eye opener! So why was He so sad about Israel?
    He wept over Jerusalem, ”How often would I have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks but YOU WOULD NOT…”. Tell me Scott is THAT the right translation in English? He loved them…ALL.
    GOD IS LOVE. He is made of it. OK…I know His other attributes aswell.
    His hate is not like ours….I have been taught that Gods hate for Esau was ‘preference’. He preferred Jacob, because he was the one who really WANTED the birthright, and Esau treated it like it was something to barter.
    We are told to ‘hate’ our families….but I have been taught and believe that this again is a contrast between loving God with all our heart and the feelings we should have for our family. God teaches husbands to love their wives as Jesus loves the Church, but that doesn’t mean that Jesus doesn’t love the world. He grieves….for who Scott?

    As a chosen vessel God will show me the truth as I walk with Him and read His Word…that is His sovereign purpose for me isn’t it?….Calvinism teaches that doesn’t it?
    So even if you cannot persuade me with your explanations, the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truth…won’t He?

    I will continue in this study for my self, I am not one to say, well I don’t believe that so that’s it.
    I KNOW Mormonism is wrong…that needs no further investigation from me….I KNOW J.W’s are wrong, that needs no further investigaion for me…I have studied their teachings extensively…..but I shall ”make sure of all things” as the J.W. is so fond of saying with the things you have said.

    I do believe we have free will to accept or reject Christ as our Savior, but if I am wrong, God will en-lighten me in His time. Maybe I shall come back in time and tell you I have changed my theology……and maybe I won’t. I put my trust in God and say, ”Thy Word is Truth….” ”THy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path…” ”Show me Your ways O God, and teach me your paths”.

    God bless.
    Maz.

    THIS IS NOT A WRONG TRANSLATION…NOT CALLING THE KJV WRONG. TRANSLATING FROM GREEK AND HEBREW TO ENGLISH WAS NO EASY TASK. THE BEST USE THEY HAD FOR CERTAINN WORDS WAS JUST AS THEY WOULD HAVE SAID IT AT THE TIME. THERE IS NO MISTRANSLATION HERE AND THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM IMPLYING. THIS IS HOW YOU STUDY GOD WORD. YOU TAKE SCRIPTURE THAT HAS US PUZZLED AND BREAK IT DOWN AS FAR AS YOU CAN. OUR PASTORS CERTAINLY DO THIS IN THEIR STUDIES…THEY DON’T JUST TAKE IT AS IT IS STATED ON THE PAGE…YOU HAVE TO DIG DEEP AND DISCOVER WHAT IS REALLY BEING SAID. REFERENCE AND CROSS REFERENCE THE SCRIPTURES TO SEE WHO THE WRITER IS TALKING ABOUT IN PORTIONS OF SCRIPTURE LIKE 2 PETER 3:9. THIS IS NOT ME ALONE DISECTING THIS….I WENT IN TO SEE IF OTHER THEOLOGIANS AND SCHOLARS HAD DONE THE SAME AND MOST HAVE THAT I FOUND. THE BIGGEST ISSUE I HAVE FOUND WITH MANY PASTORS AND TEACHERS IS THAT THEY DON’T DO HARD STUDY OF SCRIPTURE AND JUST SIMPLY COME UP WITH WHAT THEY THINK IT SAYS AND PREACH OR TEACH ON IT. THERE IS SOME WHO HAVE STUDY DEEP AND PEOPLE ARE FORTUNATE TO BE UNDER THEIR TUTILAGE, BUT I GREW HEARING ALL KINDS OF STUFF AS A SOUTHERN BAPTIST, SOME OF IT YOU COULD TRUST AND OTHERS, WELL LETS SAY IT WAS WASTED BREATH.

    I ENCOURAGE TO INVESTIGATE ANYTHING THAT ANYONE TELLS YOU INCLUDING ME. I CONTINUE TO INVESTIGATE MYSELF TO MAKE SURE WHAT I HAVE FOUND TO BE CORRECT AND THEN SOMETIMES WILL GO BACK AND MAKE SURE AGAIN. ALOT OF TIMES WHAT I DISCOVER IS NOT WHAT I WANTED TO DISCOVER, BUT IF IT IS FACT WITHOUT QUESTION I HAVE TO ACCEPT IT. WHEN I STARTED LOOKING DEEPER INTO JOHN 3:16 WHAT I DISCOVERED WAS NOT WHAT I THOUGHT I WOULD DISCOVER…I REALLY THOUGHT I WOULD FIND THE MEANING OF “WORLD” AS EVERYONE, BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT CAME OF THAT STUDYING IT WITHIN MY RESEARCH PROGRAM. NOW, SAYING ALL THAT I AM STILL LOOKING AT IT FURTHER, BUT I REALLY TRUST GREEK AND HEBREW EXPERTS MORE THAN I TRUST MYSELF…THEY UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGES FAR BETTER THAN I…I HAVE A MINOR UNDERSTANDING OF IT AT BEST.

    OH, AS FAR AS TRUSTING THE BIBLE…THERE IS NO NEED NOT TO TRUST THE BIBLE, BUT ANY PASTOR, PREACHER OR TEACHER WORTH THEIR WEIGHT WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU NEED TO CHECK IT OUT CONSTANTLY WITH THE GREEK AND HEBREW MEANINGS SO THAT YOU MAKE SURE YOU ARE APPLYING THAT TEXT CORRECTLY…FURTHER TO LOOK AT IT HERMANUTICALLY. SOME TEXT YOU FIRMLY DO NOT HAVE TO DO THIS WITH AS IT IS PLAIN ESPECIALLY WHERE IT STATES CLEARLY THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE OR PLACES BEING ADDRESSED. HOWEVER, IN HERMENUTICS YOU LOOK AT SCRIPTURE FROM THE TIMES IN WHICH THIS TEXT TOOK PLACE, THE PEOPLE OF THAT TIME, THE CULTURE, THE LANGUAGES, THE SITUATION, ETC. I MEAN WE DO NOT HAVE SLAVES NOW, BUT YOU HAVE REFERENCES FROM PAUL HOW SLAVES ARE TO HONOR THEIR MASTERS…SO YOU WOULD NOT ADDRESS PEOPLE TODAY FROM A SLAVES STANDPOINT WOULD YOU? OTHER AREAS PAUL IS WARNING THEM TO MEN OF ONE WIFE IN ORDER TO BE A PASTOR OR ELDER OR DEACON….THAT IS BECAUSE AT THAT TIME AND PLACE PALEGAMY (NOT SURE IF THAT IS SPELLED RIGHT) WAS RAMPANT AND SO PAUL STRESSED THIS. BUT NOW WE DO NOT HAVE TO ADDRESS PEOPLE FROM THIS STANDPOINT…HOWEVER, THIS PART OF SCRIPTURE HAS BEEN TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT AND RUN THROUGH THE RANKS OF CHRISTIANDOM FOR DECADES WRONGLY….IT WAS TAUGHT TO ME GROWING UP THAT FOR INSTANCE A DEACON WAS TO MARRIED TO ONLY ONE WIFE AND IF DIVORCED THEN THEY COULD NOT SERVE. THEY WAS NOT CORRECT…PAUL WAS STATING THAT THEY WERE NOT BE MARRIED TO MORE THAN ONE WIFE AT A TIME…WHEN YOU GO TO THE TIME AND PLACE PAUL WROTE THIS YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT PASTORS THAT DO NOT STUDY THIS WAY AND TAKE IT FOR FACE VALUE HAVE TAUGHT IT WRONGLY. IT WAS NOT MISTRANSLATED IN THE BIBLE…BUT IT HAS BEEN MISTAUGHT BY ITS READERS. THIS IS ALL I AM SAYING AND TRYING TO DO IS BRING THE SCRITPURE INTO CLEARER LIGHT. PLEASE, DO NOT TAKE ALL THIS AS I AM SAYING I AM ALWAYS RIGHT ON EVERY LITTLE DOT AND TITTLE….I AM HUMAN AND CAN MAKE A MISTAKE OR TWO, BUT I WILL READILY SAY SO AND CORRECT IF SO. HOWEVER, MY DISECTION OF THESE FEW IMPORTANT VERSES CHANGES HOW WE READ THOSE VERSES AND BRINGS IT INTO CLEARER LIGHT. ALTHOUGH MY SPIRIT WAS TELLING ME WHAT 2 PETER 3:9 WAS REALLY SAYING, I COULD NOT PROVE IT TOTALLY TAKING IT AT FACE VALUE, BUT WHEN YOU BREAK IT ALL DOWN IT CONFIRMED WHAT THE SPIRIT WAS TELLING ME. YOU SEE I DON’T ALWAYS TRUST THAT I AM HEARING THE SPIRIT CORRECTLY EITHER…SO I DOUBLE CHECK TO MAKE SURE I AM HEARING HIM CORRECTLY AS WELL. I JUST DO NOT TRUST MY HEART WITH SOMETHING AS DELICATE AS THE SCRIPTURES…CHECK AND RECHECK EVERYTHING AND INVESTIGATE THE SCRIPTURES ON YOUR OWN ALWAYS…DO NOT BELEIVE EVERYTHING YOUR PASTOR SAYS OR TEACHERS SAYS. IT MAY SOUND RIGHT, BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL PROMPT US TO INVESTIGATE FURTHER AT TIMES. MUCH OF WHAT I WAS TAUGHT FROM PASTORS GROWING UP I NOW SEE THEY WERE COMING FROM A DIFFERENT VIEW POINT AND MUCH IGNORANCE ON THEIR PART….MANY OF THEM IF NOT THE MAJORITY OF THEM ARE NOT EVEN IN THE PASTORATE ANYMORE. ANYWAY, I HAVE ENJOYED THE STUDYING ON THIS HARDER…HAD NOT PLANNED ON THIS, BUT IT HAS BEEN GOOD AND I LEARNED NEW AND EXCITING WAYS THE LORD HAS SECURED MY SALVATION BEFORE I EVER KNEW IT. IT HAS BEEN GREAT.

    SCOTT

  45. Maz said

    PS: Scott, you say that (out of 8 different meanings for ‘world’ or cosmos in greek) ‘world’ in John 3 v 16 means ‘only believers’, which means God so loved the believers that He gave His only Son …for believers?…” He did not love the whole world, so He didn’t give His Only Son for the whole world….right? But you have told me that you believe that Jesus died for the whole world. Am I correct? There seems to be a contradiction here.
    Please clarify.
    Maz
    Forgive me for ending this again…but I’m not sure if it went through or it is waiting for moderation??

    I MEAN THE WHOLE WORLD AS THIS IS TRANSLATED…I DID NOT BREAK IT DOWN BEFORE, BECAUSE I DID NOT HAVE MY NOTES ON THAT WITH ME AT THE TIME AND FORGOT THIS PART OF IT REALLY. REALLY THIS VERSE SHOULD STAND ON ITS OWN, BUT PEOPLE READ INTO THIS AND SO WE HAVE TO BREAK IT DOWN. AS I SAID BEFORE, I AM STILL STUDYING ON THE “LIMITED ATONEMENT” PART OF ALL THIS, WHICH MAY CHANGE MY THINKING ON THE ENTIRETY OF THE “WORLD” ISSUE. IF ANYTHING IT IS MOVING CLOSER TO HOW THE CALVINIST SEE “LIMITED ATONEMENT” RATHER THAN FARTHER AWAY. THE ONE VERSE THAT I MUST RECONCILE BEFORE I AGREE WILL ALL 5 POINTS OF THE CALVINST DOCTRINE IS 2 PETER 2:1…THERE IS A PART OF THAT VERSE THAT I MUST BE COMPLETELY SATISFIED SCRIPTURALLY WITH BEFORE I CAN SAY FOR SURE.

    FURTHERMORE, WHAT I SAID IN EXPLAINING MYSELF I STATED I WAS PROBABLY BOTCHING IT UP AND SOMETIMES I SAY WHAT I DON’T MEAN AND MEAN WHAT I DON’T INTEND TO SAY. IT IS DIFFICULT TO WRITE DOWN THOUGHTS SOMETIMES AND GET THEM ACROSS TO PEOPLE. ANYWAY, I AM STILL DEVELOPING MY THOUGHTS ON ALL AND DO NOT PRETEND TO HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, BUT THE DEEPER I DIG THE MORE CONVINCED I BECOME AND THE BEST PART IS I HAVE DISOVERED THE GREATEST OF OUR MOST AWESOME AND SOVEREIGN LORD.

    SCOTT

  46. Maz said

    Sorry, I did not mean ‘ending’ I meant ‘sending this again’!!

  47. Maz said

    Scott: Here is another verse you may like to ‘disect’ and explain. 1 John 2 v 2: ”..And He (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.”

    ”THE WHOLE WORLD” here cannot mean believers only, because he has already said, ”not for ours only” meaning believers.

    Maz

    I WILL BE GLAD TO. WHAT I HAVE LEARNED IS THAT THERE ARE OVER 287 USES FOR “WORLD” IN THE SCRIPTURES WITH ABOUT 8 POSSIBLE MEANINGS IN THOSE USES. OUR EARLY TRANSLATERS MUST HAVE HAD A TIME TRYING TO GET THE SCRIPTURES INTO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE WHICH IS SAID THE BE THE MOST DIFFICULT LANUAGE OF ALL. I HAVE NOT DISECTED THAT ONE.

    YOU READ IN THE SCRIPTURES ABOUT THE MYSTERIES OF GOD AND HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED ABOUT THAT? I DO THINK THERE IS ALOT WE CANNOT COME TO GRIPS WITH FROM THE SCRIPTURES AND SOME QUESTIONS JUST PLAINLY WAS NOT INTENDED FOR US TO UNDERSTAND YET…I JUST HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT FOR THE MOST PART. HOWEVER, IN THE MEANTIME I MUST STUDY AND TRY TO FIND THE ANSWERS EVEN IF IT IS NOT WHAT I WANT TO HEAR OR FIND. MY ARMENIAN LEANINGS IN THE BEGINNING WENT TO WASTE THIS SAME WAY AS I DUG DEEPER INTO SCRIPTURE FROM THE STANDPOINT OF UNDERSTANDING EXACTLY WHAT THE TEXT WAS SPEAKING ABOUT AND FROM WHAT VIEWPOINT WAS THE WRITER PENNING THE TEXT. I COULD NOT REFUSE WHAT I WAS FINDING AND HAD TO CHANGE MY THINKING, TEACHING AND WAY OF LOOKING AT CHRISTIANITY. IT FREED ME SO MUCH I CANNOT HARDLY EXPLAIN IT AS YOU MAY HAVE FOUND, BUT LEARNING, TEACHING AND EVANGELIZING HAS NEVER BEEN SO EXCITING FOR ME AS IT IS TODAY…NOT EASY AND HARD WORK AT TIMES, BUT GRATIFYING JUST THE SAME.

    SCOTT

  48. Scott said

    MAZ, HERE IS MY EARLY BREAKDOWN FOR 1 JOHN 2:2…I AM STILL DOING MORE WITH THIS TEXT, BUT FOR THIS VERSE HERE IS A GOOD READ ON IT. I AM LOOKING INTO THE ENTIRE TEXT TO UNDERSTAND IT THE CONTEXT BETTER AS WELL.

    THE BREAKDOWN ON THE VERSE FOR YOU:

    John is addressing young believers in this text from what I can gather here and he is asking them not to sin, but if they do sin we have Jesus that has paid the price for that sin and speaks in our defence before our heavenly Father. So, the verse could read like this:

    2 “And Jesus Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins: Jesus was not liable to die with respect to your sins only, but for His complete adorning flock of believers.”

    (WORLD/kosmos-greek)

    WORLD: arrangement, adorning (in this text)

    ARRANGEMENT: flock (in this text)

    WHOLE: complete, through (in this text)

    Who is the flock…the believers…His people.

    You can see the flock as His elect or His chosen here as Jesus has addressed this in other applications before.

    It took some going back in forth between Hebrew and Greek, but this is the best breakdown of that verse I could possibly come up with. It does not say “believers only”, but basically says that in another way as “flock of believers”.

    In Christ,
    Scott

  49. Maz said

    Scott: I actually expected you to come up with that explanation of 1 John 2 v 2! But you have, yet again, completely changed that verse. Even the JW Interlinear says the same as the AV. Not that I put much weight in the KIT. I also looked it up in the Amplified…it is still the same. Have you ever thought of writing your own Bible?

    WHY WOULD I WRITE MY OWN BIBLE? I AM SIMPLY STUDYING THE BIBLE. KOSMOS WITH A “K” DOES HAVE MEANING OF “BELIEVERS ONLY” IN SEVERAL KEY VERSES IN THE BIBLE…IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IN ALL CASES. IF ALL YOU DO IS LOOK IT UP IN THE KJV AND THEN A FEW OTHER TRANSLATIONS THAT IS GREAT. WHEN YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE PRECISE WHAT “WORLD” THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT THEN YOU GO BACK TO THE GREEK AND HEBREW. SOME OF SCRIPTURE WAS ORIGINALLY IN ARABIC….PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT CULTURES AND DIFFERENT TIMES TALKED DIFFERENTLY. I AM NOT RE-WRITING SCRIPTURE…I WAS SAYING YOU COULD READ IT LIKE THIS. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ACTUALLY MEANINGS OF WORDS YOU CANNOT DENY WHAT IS BEING SAID. WHEN I SET OUT TO LOOK DEEPER INTO THIS VERSE I HAD NO CLUE WHERE IT WOULD LEAD TO. ABSOLUTELY NO BIAS. I HAVE FOUND TIMES WHEN THE MEANING OF “WORLD” SIMPLY MEANS “WORLD”. IN THESE CASES THOUGHT BECAUSE OF WHO THEY ARE TALKING TO THERE IS A DEEPER MEANING OF THAT. IF YOU DON’T ACCEPT IT OR BELIEVE, I CANNOT CHANGE THAT. I DON’T RE-WRITE ANYTHING…YOU STARTING TO MAKE ACCUSATIONS BECAUSE YOU DON’T LIKE THE OUTCOME FOR YOUR BELIEF. HOW DO YOU THINK JOHN CALVIN AND MARTIN LUTHER CAME TO THEIR CONCLUSIONS? IT WAS NOT TAKING IT JUST ON THE SURFACE…THEY HAD TO TRANSLATE IT DOUBLE CHECK FROM THE ORIGINAL COPIES OF THE TEXT WHAT THE MEANING WAS.

    Scott: I really do think you are reading too much into the greek. Cosmos does not mean in any way ”believers only”. It’s as if you have made up a new translation like the J.W’s do, making words say what you want them to say.
    I have found other verses with exactly the same greek word ‘Cosmos’, and that word is not translated ”believers only”. To make it say that, is assuming that is what is meant, and Cosmos could just mean ‘world’.

    I RESENT BEING CALLED A J.W. I ABHORE THAT COMMENT ENTIRELY. YOU ARE WANTING AND YEARNING FOR SOMETHING TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE AND CANNOT ACCEPT SOME FACTS. AGAIN IT IS KOSMOS. NOT SURE COSMOS IS THE SAME THING…WILL LOOK AT THAT, COULD BE. I AM SIMPLY CHECKING OUT MEANINGS OF VERSES AND PUTTING IT IN SIMPLER LANGUAGE FOR MYSELF MOSTLY SO I CAN READ IT IN CONTEXT….IF THE WORD USED THERE WORKS FINE, THEN I KEEP IT AS SUCH. FOR MY STUDIES THIS IS HOW IT IS DONE…..PASTORS DO NOT JUST READ IT FROM THE KJV, NAS, NIV, AMPLIFIED AND TAKE IT AS IS…THAT IS DUMB…THEY IS HOW DENOMINATIONS, CULTS, AND OTHERS GET STARTED DOWN THE WRONG TRACK. J.W.S TAKE GOD AND MOVE IT COMPLETELY AROUND WITH A LITTLE god…THEY HAVE TAKEN AWAY THE DEITY OF CHRIST, WHICH I WILL NEVER DO…THEY TAKE AWAY THE CROSS AND MAKE FALSE PROPHECIES…NOTHING IN WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN OR TOLD YOU CAN BE COMPARED TO SUCH…THAT IS LIKE THE FALSE WITNESS BALONEY YOU CAME UP WITH YESTERDAY…I HAVE NEVER EVEN HEARD ANOTHER ARMENIAN COME UP WITH THAT ONE. WHAT I LOOK AT CANNOT AND WILL NOT TAKE AWAY THE GLORY OF GOD FROM GOD…AT WORSE IT TAKES THE GLORY FROM MAN THAT LIKE TO THINK MAN HAS A LITTLE BIT OF GOD IN THEM TO SAVE THEMSELVES…SO THEY CAN SAY THEY CAME TO CHRIST RATHER THAN CHRIST CAME TO THEM AND CHOSE THEM…THEY DENY CERTAIN SCRIPTURES THAT PLAINLY TEACH ABOUT THE ELECT AND PREDESTINATION….THEY HAVE NO EXPLANATION OF THOSE VERSES, BUT THEY CAN CERTAINLY PULL OTHER VERSES OUT TO TRY AND CONTRADICT….I AM NOT TRYING TO FIND THE CONTRADICTIONS, BUT FIND THE FLOW OF THE SCRIPTURES SO THAT IT COMPLETELY MAKES SENSE AS FAR AS I CAN UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES…AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE GOD DOES NOT NECESSARILY MAKE ANY SENSE SOMETIMES FOR OUR TINY HUMAN BRAINS, BUT AT LEAST IF I CAN UNDERSTAND THE MYSTERY BETTER OF MANY VERSES BY LOOKING INTO THE GREEK AND HEBREW TEXT OF THESE WORDS PLUS CHECK IT OUT WITH OTHER VERSIONS FO THE SCRIPTURES THEN I WILL DO SO. I NEVER TAKE ANYTHING JUST BECAUSE IT IS WRITTEN DOWN AS SO. IF ANYTHING I EVER LOOK DEEPER INTO EVER WOULD SUGGEST THAT GOD IS LESS GOD OR THAT CHRIST IS LESS CHRIST THEN I KNOW I AM DOWN THE WRONG PATH AND WILL LOOK TO MOVE FROM THAT DIRECTION. BUT IF WHAT I FIND POINTS TO GREATER GLORY AND HONOR TO MY GOD AND EXHALTS MY LORD JESUS CHRIST EVEN GREATER THEN YOU CAN BET I WILL AGREE…EVERYTHING I HAVE WRITTEN AN EXPLANATION FOR DOES NOT DO ANYTHING BUT GLORIFY GOD. THIS IS ALL ABOUT JESUS CHRIST AS OUR LORD AND THE FACT THAT HE HAS CHOSEN PEOPLE….STUDYING THE BIBLE TO BETTER UNDERSTAND HOW THAT CAN BE IS NOT CHANGING THE SCRIPTURE. PASTORS LOOK TO GREEK AND HEBREW MEANINGS ALONG WITH THE CROSS REFERENCES TO OTHER SCRIPTURES PLUS THE COMMENTARIES FOR FURTHER EXPOUNDING. YOU CAN BELIEVE WHAT YOU WISH…I TOLD YOU THIS MAY NOT CONVINCE YOU, BUT IT IS FACINATING TO ME. YOU WILL REMAIN BELIEVING AS YOU WISH BECAUSE YOU WANT TO, NOT BECAUSE IT HAS NOT BEEN POINTED OUT TO YOU.

    John 4 v 42: ”…this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world (COSMOS)”.

    Eph: 1 v 4: ”According as He has chosen us in HIm (I believe that but not the way you do) before the foundation of the world…” (His foreknowledge) Again here, the word is COSMOS. Here it can’t be the foundation of the believers only can it?

    1 John 5 v 4: ”For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world…” (COSMOS) This can’t mean believers either.

    THERE IS OVER 287 USES OF THAT WORD KOSMOS IN THE SCRIPTURE AND IT DOES NOT MEAN THE SAME EVERY TIME….WITH AROUND 8 DIFFERENT MEANINGS. YOU CAN JUST LOOK AT THE KJV I SUPPOSE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT MEANS? YOU JUST TAKE IT LITERAL IS WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME. IN SOME CASES YOU CAN DO THAT, BUT IN OTHER CASES YOU CANNOT, SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KNOW THAT UNLESS YOU DIG DEEPER INTO THIS BY GOING TO STRONGS AND OTHER STUDY SITES.

    You see even with these couple of verses, you can’t just make a word say what you want it to say.
    COSMOS can mean world, so why can’t it mean world in John 3 v 16? It can’t if you believe in Calvinism, which means your biased view towards Calvinism is causing you to translate it other than what it means.

    2 Cor: 5 v 19: ”…God was in Christ reconciling the world (COSMOS) to Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”

    Scott: Your private translation of John 3 v 16 is totally different to the Authorised, Amplified and even the New World Translation!! That is why one of them MUST be wrong. They are not saying the same thing are they?

    THIS WAS NOT ONLY MY STUDY, BUT THE WORK OF SEVERAL OTHER GREAT SCHOLARS AS WELL. I CONFIRMED IT THERE. I AM NOT JUST TAKING MY ANSWERS FOR THIS…THAT WOULD BE CRAZY. I CHECK MY WORK AND STUDY TO MAKE SURE I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT CAME UP WITH THAT ANSWER. I WOULD NOT CALL IT A TRANSLATION EITHER…IT IS REALLY A MORE DEFINED DEFINITION OF THAT SCRIPTURE….NO NEED TO RE-WRITE, BUT YOU DO NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS. YOU ARE TAKING SOMETHING VERY BASIC TO CHRISTIAN STUDIES AND SCHOLARS STUDY SCRIPTURE AND MAKING IT BAD. THIS IS HOW SWINDOLL, GRAHAM, PIPER, MACARTHUR, FARRAR, SPURGEON, AND OTHERS STUDIED….DO YOU THINK THEY JUST PICK UP THE BIBLE ON SUNDAY MORNING AND PREACH FROM IT? SORRY, BUT THEIR STUDIES GO FAR DEEPER THAN YOU AND I WILL EVER KNOW.

    You say that you have to dig deep and discover what is RALLY being said. As if it REALLY isn’t saying what it means. In other words, when we read the Bible, there are verses that are saying things that are really not what they are saying atall. In other words, I would say that that was error. Can you not see this?

    WHAT IT SAYS CAN STAND, BUT YOU CANNOT TAKE THE WORD “WORLD” IN SOME CASES TO MEAN EVERY SINGLE LIVING SOUL IN THE UNIVERSE…IT CAN STILL SAY WORLD, BUT HAVE TO KNOW WHAT WORLD IS BEING SPOKEN ABOUT HERE. THESE PEOPLE LIVED IN THEIR OWN WORLDS SO TO SPEAK. THEY CAN BE SAYING MY WORLD AS IN WORLD OF BELIEVERS OR MY WORLD AS IN THIS REGION OR MY WORLD AS IN THE ROMAN EMPIRE WORLD AND IN SOME CASES IT CAN MEAN WORLD AS IN ITS ENTIRETY. THE WORD WORLD DOES NOT HAVE TO BE CHANGED, BUT YOU NEED TO KNOW WHICH CONTEXT THE WRITER IS SPEAKING.

    There is no ‘clearer light’. That again sounds like a JW phrase, like they use when they have fresh revelation….’new light’. I see danger signs!

    AGAIN, I WILL ASK YOU TO STOP THIS J.W. STUFF. I AM IN NO WAY A J.W. OR EVEN MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION. I AM NOT TALKING LIGHT IN THE SINCE YOU ARE REFERRING TO ME. I MEAN MAKING SOMETHING CLEARER….THAT IS NOT NEW AGE OR J.W.ISH….THEY ARE MANY VERSES THAT JUST DO NOT SEEM CLEAR TO ME AT TIMES AND WHEN YOU DIG IN DEEPER IT BECOMES MORE CLEAR TO ME WHAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT. DO NOT PLAY WITH MY WORDS.

    You tell me I shouldn’t listen to my Pastor…well, I listen, as I listen to you, as I listen to anybody else who has an opinion or a belief, I listen to preaching and teaching, but always, the Bible is the final authority on what I accept. And if that is not saying what it really means to say then I or anyone else would soon be in trouble. To have to dig into the Greek and Hebrew to understand what the Bible means is OK, but if God didn’t lead men full of the Holy Spirit to atleast write the truth and the nearest meaning of the original then we might aswell put our Bibles away and leave it to the Greek and Hebrew scholars…..or we must all learn Greek and Hebrew when we become Christians, so that we will know the truth as it was written originally.

    Phew! I’m trying to put this as comprehensively as possible, so there is no misunderstanding of what I am trying to convey here. And I don’t promote anything the JWs say, its just an example…when they are so wrong themselves they still manage to agree with the AV!

    The English Bible, I believe, gives us a clear and truthful record of Gods Word, and I see no reason to dig and disect so much that we change what it is saying, thereby actually changing the truth God wants us to know.

    Here is another verse: John 1 v 29: ”Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world (COSMOS).” Ofcourse as a Calvinist, you would have to say that the Lamb of God came to take away the sins of the believers only…but COSMOS could also mean WORLD. Right? Except, that you could not accept that interpretation based on your belief.

    I just want to end with what you said about God not loving the whole world…or was that a mistake?
    If God asks us to love our enemies, then He also would love His enemies. We are also asked to love our neighbour….which means, and Jesus meant…..everybody. So if we are to love everybody, surely God loves the whole world too.

    One question to finish. Do you know if Martin Luther was a Calvinist?

    In Christ,
    Maz

    HE IS RANKED AMONG ONE OF THE TOP CALVINIST…I DID NOT PERSONALLY ASK HIM. NOW, HE WAS NOT “CALVINIST” IF YOU ARE PLAYING WITH MY WORDS AGAIN. HE CAME BEFORE JOHN CALVIN, YET HE TAUGHT A GREAT DEAL ABOUT THE ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION. I HAVE ONE OF HIS COMMENTARIES FROM ROMANS AND THE ANOTHER FROM GALATIONS HE DID. BOTH ARE GREAT WORKS. I KNOW MANY NON-CALVINIST WANT TO CLAIM HIM AMONG THEIR RANKS AS WELL, BUT MOST OF HIS WORK WAS FAR LEANING TOWARDS THE DOCTRINE OF THE ELECT THAN THE OTHER WAY.

    I DID NOT RAD ALL OF YOUR STUFF ABOVE…SEEMED TO BE THE SAME OLD RAMBLING. ANYWAY, I AM NOT HEAR TO CONVINCE YOU AND DID NOT SHARE THE STUDIES I HAD FOUND ON THESE VERSE….ACTUALLY THOUGHT YOU MIGHT BE SOMEWHAT INTERESTED IN IT. SINCE YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN ANY OTHER VIEW POINTS AND BELIEFS BUT YOUR OWN I GUESS NOTHING IS LEFT TO SAY.

    SCOTT

  50. Scott said

    SIX IMPORTANT BIBLE STUDY METHODS AS DESCRIBED BY A LITTLE BOOK ON HOW TO STUDY YOUR BIBLE (PARAPHRASED FOR LENGTH):

    1. THE EXPOSITIONAL METHOD: studying different Bible books verse by verse, using observation, interpretation, and application guideline.

    2. THE SURVEY METHOD: survey the entire old testament or the new testament. break it down into parts like Genesis to Deut known as the Law or Pentateuch meaing five volumes. Joshua thru Esther are the twelve historical books. and so on.

    3. THE TOPICAL METHOD: use a good Bible concordance, Bible encyclopdeia and topical guideline can help give extensive articles and explanations using this method. this is an especially good method when you are learning about doctrinal issues. Lewis Sperry Chafer has a great study book to help with this called Major Bible Themes.

    4. THE BIOGRAPHICAL METHOD: studying different people in the Bible and find out all you can about them. where did they live, what language did they use, what were times like, who else famous was around at that time, what were other regions like, what WORLD were they living in at this time. we can learn from their experiences about God’s forgiveness, how God lead some through the wilderness, etc.

    5. THE WORD STUDY METHOD: by using a concordance and Bible dictionary you’ll be able to locate these different words and see how they are used. SEVERAL GREEK WORDS MIGHT BE TRANSLATED INTO ONE ENGLISH WORD (AH-HA). Using a Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance is essential to understanding the variety of meanings (THIS IS THE ONE I USE). One of the biggies is “World”. imagine that. Three off the top of the list is WORLD: kosmos, aion, and oikoumene…all these are different Greek words for WORLD, that do not mean the same thing. Each of those also have different uses within those meanings. LOVE is another english word that in the Greek has more than one word for it and more than one meaning, but the writer chose to use LOVE in that sentence even though that particular LOVE may not mean the same thing as LOVE in another sentence. Same with WORLD. This happens to be one of the studies I use when we are speaking about particular words.

    6. THE DEVOTIONAL METHOD: using a devotional to help lead you into study with commentary from particular writers of the faith. includes rading the scripture, prayer, and commentary.

    ALL OF THESE METHODS ARE GOOD ONES. IT IS GOOD TO STUDY THE BIBLE FROM A BALANCE FROM ALL 6 OF THESE. I EMPLOYED ONE METHOD IN PARTICULAR BECAUSE IT WAS PERTENANT TO THE DISCUSSION. IT IS NOT RE-WRITING SCRIPTURE TO EMPLOY THIS METHOD OF STUDY AND PLACE AND NEW WORD IN PLACE OF THE ORIGINAL WORD IN ORDER TO ASSIST IN THE UDNERSTANDING. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ONE WILL RE-WRITE THE BIBLE WITH THIS NEW WORD. BY EMPLOYING THIS METHOD IT HELPS WHEN YOU ARE READING PARTICULAR VERSES TO KNOW IN THE BACK OF YOUR MIND WHAT IT IS REALLY TRYING TO SAY. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RE-WRITING SCRIPTURE. FOR INSTANCE, THE WORD “WORLD” COMES TO MIND. I NOW THROUGH THIS METHOD OF STUDY THAT THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT MEANING FOR THE WORD. I WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER THE VERSES I STUDIED AND WHAT I FOUND AS TO THE MEANING AND BE ABLE IN MY MIND UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT OF THAT VERSE…IT WILL BE WITH ME FOREVER.

    I AM IN THE PROCESS OF DISECTING 2 PETER 2:1 NOW AND IT IS TOUGH. THERE IS TWO DIFFERENT WAYS TO READ A PARTICULAR PHRASE AND I AM TRYING TO SEE WHICH ONE FITS THE FLOW OF THE SCRIPTURES, HAS THE CLOSEST MEANING TO FIT THE CONTEXT, AND DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE TEXT. I AM CLOSE ON THIS ONE, BUT IT MAY NEVER BE 100% CONVINCING TO ME OR ANYONE ELSE.

    HOPEFULLY THIS CAN BE HELPFUL TO SOMEONE OUT THERE THAT WANTS TO UNDERSTAND THEIR BIBLE EVEN MORE RATHER THAN JUST ACCEPT WHAT SOMEONE HAS TOLD US IN THE PAST.

    SCOTT

  51. Scott said

    HERE IS A SMALL TASTE OF SOME OF THE USES AND MEANINGS OF THE WORD “WORLD” ACCORDING TO STRONG’S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE OF THE GREEK EXPERTS:

    -JOHN 7:7 UNBELIEVER

    -JOHN 12:19 MANY MEN, NOT ALL

    -JOHN 14:15 HARDENED UNBELIEVER

    -JOHN 15:19 EVERYONE BESIDES BELIEVERS

    -ACTS 17:6 THE CIVILIZED WORLD

    -ROMANS 10:18 ALL THE EARTH, BUT NOT EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL

    -1 CORINTHIANS 4:9 EVERYONE WHO SAW THE DISCIPLES

    -GALATIANS 6:4 THE EARTHLY SENSUAL PLEASURES OF LIFE

    -REV 13:3 SOME FROM EVERY NATION, BUT NOT ANY BELIEVERS

    -NAHUM 1:5 ALL OF CREATION

    -MATTHEW 13:38 ALL MEN-SOME OF GOD & SOME OF SATAN

    -MATTHEW 24:14 ALL NATIONS

    -JAMES 3:6 VARIETY OF ALL KINDS

    -1 PETER 5:9 GENERAL POPULATION

    -2 PETER 2:5 THE UNGODLY

    -1 JOHN 3:1 UNBELIEVERS

    *THIS IS A SHORT LIST OF THE DIFFERENT USES FOR THE WORD “WORLD”. THIS IS NOT RE-WRITING SCRIPTURE…IT IS CALLED “THE WORD METHOD” OF STUDYING THE SCRIPTURES. THIS IS ONE OF THE SIMPLIST VERSIONS OF STUDYING THE BIBLE HERMANUTICALLY. IT IS NOT RE-TRANSLATING THE SCRIPTURE SO TO SPEAK, BUT IT IS TRANSLATING THE SCRIPTURES TO HELP US UNDERSTAND THE VERSES IN CONTEXT.

    NOW, IN JOHN 10:14-15 JESUS TELLS US WHO HE DIED FOR…HIS SHEEP. EPHESIANS 5:25 “HUSBANDS LOVE YOUR WIVES JUST AS CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH…” WHO ARE THE SHEEP=BELIEVERS, CHOSEN ONES, THE ELECT. WHO IS CHRIST CHURCH=BELIEVERS, CHOSEN ONES, THE ELECT.

    IT IS THE ELECT OVER AND OVER AND OVER….SCRIPTURE CALLS US HIS ELECT IN MATTHEW 24:22,24,31 & MARK 13:20,22,27 & ROMANS 11:7 & 1 TIM 5:21 & 2 TIM 2:10 & TITUS 1:1 & 1 PETER 1:1 ELECTION IN ROMANS 9:11 & 11:28 & 2 PETER 1:10. NO ONE CAN DENY THESE PARTS OF SCRIPTURE AND THEY TIE IN TO THE REST OF SCRIPTURE. REMOVING THEM WILL NOT HELP.

    1 PETER 1:20 “HE HAS CHOSEN YOU BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD…”

  52. Scott said

    TO ASSIST FURTHER WITH JOHN 3:16.

    WHEN DISECTING THIS VERSE WE CANNOT IGNORE THE CULTURE IN WHICH IT WAS WRITTEN OR WHO WROTE IT. THE WRITER WAS TRYING TO TELL THE JEWS AT THAT TIME THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY CHOSEN ONES OF GOD. THAT JESUS DIED NOT ONLY FOR THEM, BUT FOR PEOPLE IN ALL THE WORLD. DID NOT INTEND TO MEAN HE DIED FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE WORLD. IT WAS A BROAD GESTURE THAT JEWS AND GENTILES ALIKE WOULD BE SAVED FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. WE DO NOT HAVE TO CHANGE THE WORDING OF THE SCRIPTURE TO KEEP THIS MEANING, BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GET OFF THE COUCH AND STUDY IN ORDER TO GET THIS.

    2 TIMOTHY 2:15 “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” KJV

    or

    “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” NIV

    or

    “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” NAS

    or

    “Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.” NLT

    or

    “Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth.” Amplified Bible

    or

    “Busily keep [Busily care, or keep,] to give thyself an approved, praiseable workman to God, without shame, rightly treating the word of truth.” Wycliffe NT

    THE GREATEST POINT IS THAT WE DO NOT JUST READ THE SCRIPTURE AND HOPE THAT WE UNDERSTAND. IT TAKES WORK AND GREAT STRIDES TO BE CAREFUL THAT WE ARE READING AND UDNERSTANDING AND TEACHING THE WORD OF GOD CORRECTLY. I THINK THIS HAS NOT BEEN DONE FOR DECADES AND NOW WE HAVE A GENERATION OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY BELEIVE…THEY THINK THAT SALVATION COMES WHENEVER THEY GET READY FOR IT…THEY THINK THAT IF THEY WILL JUST MUTTER SOME WORDS ABOUT BELIEVING JESUS THEY ARE SAVED…HOW DECEIVED THEY HAVE BECOME. IT IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE CLEAR THAT GOD IS RAISING UP HIS REMNANT ESPECIALLY IN PREACHERS AND TEACHERS THAT ARE GOING BACK TO THE BASICS OF GOD’S WORD AND GOING BACK TO WHAT THE OLD THEOLOGIANS WERE TEACHING LIKE CALVIN, SPURGEON, KNOX, EDWARDS, WHITEFIELD AND OTHERS. WE MUST…GRACE AND SALVATION HAVE BEEN CHEAPENED SO MUCH THAT MANY DO NOT EVEN THINK THEY NEED TO ACCEPT CHRIST BECAUSE AS THE SCRIPTURE TEACH TO THEM THAT THE “WHOLE WORLD” WILL BE SAVED. THAT IS WHAT THIS TYPE OF THEOLOGY TEACHES PEOPLE…SINCE THE SCRIPTURE SAYS “WHOLE WORLD” THEN THAT MEANS THE “WHOLE WORLD” WILL BE SAVED. THIS IS TEACHING “UNIVERSALISM”…CHRIST WAS NOT TEACHING “UNIVERSALISM” WHEN HE WAS SPEAKING HERE.

    ANY WAY…IT IS A DANGEROUS THING WHEN PEOPLE TAKE THE ENGLISH SCRIPTURES SO LITERAL THAT THEY MISS THE REAL MEANING OF THIS DEEP AND RICH BOOK OF GOD’S WORD. BY NOT STUDYING THIS BIBLE TO ITS FULLEST YOU MISS OUT ON ENTIRE MEANINGS THAT COULD IMPACT YOUR LIFE EVEN GREATER FOR CHRIST…IT COULD ASSIST IN A DEEPER WALK WITH THE LORD, YET MANY ONLY GET A SURFACE UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THEY THINK THE SCRIPTURES ARE SAYING…THEN LIVE THEIR LIVES ACCORDINGLY. AN EXAMPLE OF TAKING THE WORD LITERALLY AND REALLY MISSING THE UNDERSTANDING:

    “We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” 1 JOHN 5:19 NAS

    NOW, IF YOU TAKE THAT LITERALLY SEE HOW IT CONTRADICTS ITSELF ON THE SURFACE? IN ONE SENSE WE ARE OF GOD AND THEN IN THE NEXT SENSE WE ARE ALL UNDER THE POWER OF SATAN. THIS IS NOT TRUE TAKEN LITERALLY. “WHOLE WORLD” HERE DOES NOT MEAN EVERY SINGLE LIVING PERSON…THE WRITER IS STATING THAT WE BELIEVERS KNOW WE ARE GOD’S PEOPLE, BUT THE REST OF THE UNBELIEVING WORLD IN UNDER THE POWER OF SATAN. TOTALLY DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING IT THAT WAY. AGAIN, THIS IS NOT RE-WRITING SCRIPTURE OR RE-TRANSLATING THE WORD…IT IS SIMPLY HELPING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE WRITER NEARLY 2,000 YEARS AGO WAS SPEAKING CULTURALLY, LANGUAGE WISE, ETC. YOU CAN ACCEPT THE SCRIPTURE AS THOUGH YOUR GRANPA WROTE IT LAST WEEK..THAT IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE.

    ANYWAY, THAT IS FURTHER EXPLANATION OF WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO STUDY GOD’S WORD USING SEVERAL DIFFERENT METHODS…NOT THE LITERAL METHOD ALWAYS.

    IN CHRIST, SCOTT

  53. Scott said

    EPHESIANS 1:11-12

    “In Him we were also CHOSEN, having been PREDESTINED according to the PLAN of Him who works out everything in conformity with the PURPOSE of His WILL, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of His glory.” NIV

    OR

    “Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an INHERITANCE from God, for He CHOSE us in ADVANCE, and He makes everything work out according to His PLAN.
    God’s PURPOSE was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God.” NLVT

    OR

    “In whom also we have obtained an INHERITANCE, being PREDESTINATED according to the PURPOSE of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own WILL:
    That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.” KJV

    TREMENDOUS PASSAGE THAT STATES IT WELL IN THREE DIFFERENT VERSIONS. THE MAIN POINT BEING WE WERE CHOSEN AND PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE BASED ON HIS WILL NOT OURS. IN THE END WE ARE TO BE TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY. AMEN!

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  54. Scott said

    MAZ, I AM SORRY, BUT YOU WERE DONE THE OTHER DAY WITH THE J.W. COMMENTS. THAT WAS GOING TOO FAR. I HAD NEVER CALLED YOU OR ACCUSED YOU OF BEING ANYTHING LESS THAN A BELIEVER AND THOUGHT THE SAME RESPECT WOULD COME FROM YOU. HOWEVER, IT DID NOT WORK OUT THAT WAY. ALSO, I DO NOT TELL PEOPLE THAT “GOD IS TELLING ME” OR “GOD TOLD ME”…THAT IS DANGEROUS. I WAS TAUGHT BY MANY PASTORS FROM THE PULPIT THAT WHENEVER SOMEONE STARTS SAYING THESE THINGS GET AWAY FROM THEM. GOD SPEAKS THROUGH HIS WORD OR THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT OR THROUGH EVENTS, AND EVEN OTHER GODLY PEOPLE, BUT HE IS NOT SPEAKING DIRECTLY WITH PEOPLE VERBABLY TODAY LIKE HE DID MOSES IN THE BURNING BUSH…NOT THAT HE IS LIMITED, BUT MOST I HAVE EVER HEARD MAKE THAT TYPE OF COMMENT USUALLY WERE INSANE OR IN A CULT. SO, BE EXTRA CAREFUL WITH THAT KIND OF VERBAGE OR PEOPLE COULD THINNK THE SAME OF YOU.

    I WILL CONTINUE TO POST COMMENTS HERE THAT ARE RELAVENT TO THE CONVERSATION WE WERE HAVING, BUT PROBABLY ONLY ONE OR TWO MORE…MAYBE! I HAVE MANY COMMENTS DAILY ON A FEW OTHER BLOGS OF MINE THAT I AM ADDRESSING THAT ARE FAR MORE GRATEFUL FOR THE INFORMATION AND THEY ARE ACTUALLY SEEING WHAT IS BEING SAID AND UNDERSTANDING. IN OTHER WORDS THEY UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENT METHODS OF STUDYING THE BIBLE AND THAT I WAS NOT CHANGING SCRIPTURE, BUT SIMPLY EXPOUNDING ON IT AND USING MOSTLY THE “WORD STUDY METHOD” I EMPLOYED WITH YOU, FOR OUR CONVERSATION. YOU KNOW MOST OF THIS BOILS DOWN TO PARTICULAR WORDS NOT JUST OVERALL BELIEFS. THAT IS WHY I USED THIS PARTICULAR METHOD, HOWEVER, I WAS ACCUSED OF BEING A J.W. I DOUBT THE J.W.’S OR LDS PEOPLE EVEN KNOW HOW TO USE THIS KIND OF METHOD PROPERLY OR HOW TO READ THROUGH THE GREEK AND HEBREW. FROM WHAT I HAVE LEARNED OF THE LDS, THAT TOOK SCRIPTURES LITERALLY AND DID NOT GO TO THE GREEK AND HEBREW AND THAT IS HOW THEY GOT SO SCREWED UP AND WROTE AN ENTIRE NEW BOOK BACK IN 1830. IF JOSEPH SMITH HAD EMPLOYED THE “WORD STUDY METHOD” MAYBE HE WOULD NOT GOTTEN SO FAR OFF…OF COURSE HE HAD OTHER ISSUES BECAUSE OF HIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE OCCULT AND FREE MASONS, BUT STILL HE COULD HAVE BEEN SOMEWHAT CLOSER RATHER THAN REWRITING HIS OWN BOOK. LITERAL INTERPRETATION ON THE ENTIRE BIBLE IS DANGEROUS AND FOR THE MOST PART IS WHY SO MANY HATE THE CHURCH AS IT IS TODAY, BECASUE SCRIPTURE HAS BEEN TAKE N SO LITERALLY AND TAUGHT THIS WAY, WHICH FOR THE MOST PART WAS FALSE….NOW WE HAVE NEW GENERATION READING IT LITERALLY AGAIN, BUT IN A DIFFERENT WAY BECAUSE OF THEIR UNIVERSALISM BELIEF THAT “ALL” WILL BE SAVED BECAUSE JESUS DIED FOR THE “WHOLE WORLD”. DANGEROUS DANGEROUS DANGEROUS.

    IN CONCLUSION, I DID NOT FIGURE YOU WOULD CARE MUCH ANYWAY, SINCE YOUR COMMENTS WERE SAYING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND YOU WILL MOST LIKELY NEVER AGREE EVEN WITH THE PROOF PRESENTED. I CANNOT FORCE YOU TO BELIEVE IT NOR DID I REALLY EXPECT YOU TO, BUT I THOUGHT YOU WOULD HAVE AT LEAST LISTENED AND FOUND SOME THINGS INTERESTING RATHER THAN BLOWING IT OFF BECAUSE YOU WANT IT ALL TO LINE UP WITH YOU. I PRESENTED YOU WITH SCRIPTURAL PROOF GALORE…YOU ON THE OTHER HAND ONLY RAISED MORE QUESTIONS RATHER ADDRESSING MY COMMENTS WITH YOUR SCRIPTURAL PROOF…WHEN YOU PRESENTED SCRIPTURE, I COULD REFUTE IT EVERYTIME. DO YOU KNOW WHY I COULD REFUTE IT? BECAUSE THE SCRIPTURES ARE NOT CONTRADICTING ITSELF. WHAT I PRESENTED ALL LINED UP EVEN WITH THE SCRIPTURES YOU SUBMITTED. NOW, FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW THESE SCRIPTURES WERE CONTRADICTING EACH OTHER AND YOU BASICALLY HAVE TO LEAVE NEARLY ENTIRE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE OUT TO MAKE YOUR SCENARIO WORK, BUT ON THE FLIP SIDE WE CAN WORK WITH WHATEVER SCRIPTURE YOU PUSH OUT. UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND MEANINGS OF CERTAIN WORDS YOU WILL ALWAYS BE IN THE DARK ON THIS. BY USING THE WORD STUDY METHOD I WAS ABLE TO REFUTE YOUR THOUGHTS. THE SCRIPTURES ALL LINE UP IN A VERY UNIQUE, DEEP AND RICH WAY. I LOVE GOD’S WORD AND THE STUDY OF THE WORD. THIS IS WHY THIS VERSE IS SO IMPORTANT TO US:

    2 TIMOTHY 2:15 “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” KJV

    I PRAY ALL THE BEST FOR YOU AND BOYS.

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  55. Scott said

    MAZ, THANK YOU FOR EXPLAINING. AGAIN, I PRAY THE BEST FOR YOU AND YOUR SONS. I REALLY DO. I DO HOPE THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO HAVE IMPACT ON MANY AROUND YOU FOR CHRIST INCLUDING YOUR UNSAVED SON.

    IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  56. Scott said

    Today, our Christian culture has destorted God’s original plan, which is “Salvation by grace through faith”. Now, after decades of false doctrine by the Armenian Man Sovereignty of Man’s Free Will Theology, it is now, “Salvation by faith through grace” which is not scriptural.

    Romans 8:7-8 “because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh CANNOT please God.”

    1 Corinthians 2:14 “But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he CANNOT understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”

    Galatians 3:3 “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

    Jeremiah 17:9 “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?”

    Psalm 14:3 “All have turned aside,
    they have together become corrupt;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”

    For man, he cannot accept Christ in and of himself, ever. The Armenian “Free Will” theology in the end becomes the Sovereignty of Man over the Sovereignty of God. This is the most heretical and dangerous of all theologies. As I have addressed this issue over and over is that any theology that exhalts man over God is wrong. The Scriptures tell us that man in his sinful state CANNOT please God and CANNOT understand the things of God without a regenerated heart. Thus the Holy Spirit must regenerate any man’s heart before he can ever start to believe.

    I have heard so many preachers try to teach God’s Sovereignty in the same breath as man’s Free Will. However, unknown to them is that these two are at odds with each other and CANNOT be taught in the same breath truthfully. You either believe in the total sovereignty of God’s Free Will to choose who He wills to be saved or you trust in man’s Free Will to choose God whenever he gets around to it or feels like it resulting in the sovereingty of man. You CANNOT have both.

    In Christ,
    Scott

  57. Scott said

    Another great way to see how words can be the same yet mean something different is our english word “crash”. We use this in several different instances but here are three ways it can be used:

    “John crashed the car last night”. Literal meaning.

    “John crashed in bed when he got home from work”. Meaning he went right to bed and was so tired he went to sleep. He did not literally crash.

    “John and his friends crashed his sisters party last night”. This means they went uninvited to his sisters party.

    All three times the word “crashed” is used yet it means something different in each sentence. This is the same way it is with the word “world” and “all” used in the scriptures. It is used on many occassions, yet it has several different meanings…you cannot take it literally each time it is used. This is why the word study method is so important to studying scripture.

    Thought you might like that explanation for this.

    In Christ,
    Scott

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