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Can Any Mormon or LDS Member Answer A Few Questions? Christian Comments Welcome!

Posted by Scott on March 26, 2008

Posted by Scott Baileyhave never found anyone within the Mormon faith that can answer these few simple questions which all raise other questions, so I pose these here to see if someone within the Mormon faith can answer them for me and everyone else…we really would like to know the answers.  For other great discussion questions go here:

1. If the American Indians were suppose to all be descendants of Lehi as is told, why was there so much diversity in the language and yet there was no indication of Hebrew in any of the Indian languages?2. Lehi as the Book of Mormon states that he found horses when he arrives in America.  Yet the horse described as well as many other domesticated animals did not even exist in America until the arrival of the Spanish Conquistadors.  So, how could Lehi have found horses several hundreds of years before they were even in America?
3. Nephi says that he had a “bow of steel”.  It is well known that Jews did not have steel at the time Nephi states this nor were there any iron or steel smelted on this continent until many hundreds of years later after the Spaniard Conquest.  How did Nephi have a “bow of steel” hundreds of years before steel was even known?

4. In The Book of Mormon we frequently see mentioned “swords and sci-meters (scimitars).”  This is interesting again because “sci-meters or scimitars” were unknown until the rise of the Muslim faith well after 600 A.D.  How could this be?

5. We know according to scholars and historians that silk did not exist in America during the pre-Colombian times.  Yet, The Book of Mormon says the Nephites possessed silk.  How did they get silk when silk was not around and was unknown during this time?

6. Joseph Smith describes in The Book of Mormon the Mayan Cliffs and high mountain peaks.  Where are these actually located?  Much of the geography of The Book of Mormon was thought by B.H. Roberts, Mormon General Authority and considered an expert on The Book of Mormon in the early 1900’s, to be alot like the landscape in and around the New England area.  B.H. Roberts began to question the authority of The Book of Mormon in his latter days to the point and I quote “Joseph Smith wrote The Book of Mormon himself and that there was no golden plates“. This comes after years of devotion to the Mormon faith and he was an apologist and expert on Mormonism besides the fact that he served on the Mormon Church’s First Council of the Seventy.  All I ask is that where are the Mayan Cliffs and other geographical places mentioned located geographically..not speaking of the only one location in New York that was an easy find?

I would also challenge anyone to research B.H. Roberts work he did before his death in 1933, but was not published until after his death.  A comprehensive study of these documents were published in 1985 as Studies of the Book of Mormon by the University of Illinois.  These were also edited by two Mormon scholars, Brigham Madsen and Sterling McMurrin.  Further interesting facts is that B.H. Roberts, expert in the Mormon faith he was a part of to his death, he wrote an open letter to then President Heber Grant, his counselors, the twelve apostles, and First Council of Seventy requesting an emergency meeting with them concerning these many questions.  However, upon the conclusion of this meeting they had resolved nothing, many did not take these questions serious, and most only testified to what they believed without knowing or researching any of the facts raised in these questions.  B.H. Roberts concluded Joseph Smith was merely caught up in spiritual excesses to which he imagined prophecies and manifestations.  “His revelations become merely human productions…Morbid imaginations, Morbid expression of emotions (were) likely to find there way into the knowledge of Joseph Smith and influence his conceptions of spiritual things.”  Roberts also concluded that the “golden plates” did not really exist, but were “psychological”.  Finally, Roberts was convinced that it was very clear that The Book of Mormon was taken from the ground work of Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews that came out prior to The Book of Mormon and was published near where Joseph Smith lived at the time…in B.H. Roberts own conclusion was that Joseph Smith was a plagiarist.

So, in conclusion, I am simply asking if anyone out there claiming to be of the true Mormon faith or The Church Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can answer these puzzling questions for me.  If they can, we can put years of unanswered questioning to rest and thousands upon thousands of new believers will be added to the faith.

Thanks.

Scott

 

If you or someone you know would like more information on becoming a born again Christian, please, contact us via email Guys @ scott@dadsdevoted.com or Ladies @ dana@livingstones4moms.com !  We would be glad to spend time with you through email to answer any questions you may have and help you in placing your loyal trust in Jesus Christ as your savior today!  If you are only interested in debating theology, doctrine, religion or anything else, please, do that through the comment forum provided at the end of this post.

 

Researched from James R. Spencer, former Mormon Elder, from www.mazeministry.com

Update:  3-30-2010  I know many LDS members have commented here and on other sites claiming to have answered all these questions long ago. However, I have found only speculation in each answer given, nothing truthfully documented.  So, these questions still remain today as they did when first published. 

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26 Responses to “Can Any Mormon or LDS Member Answer A Few Questions? Christian Comments Welcome!”

  1. Jettboy said

    I would answer them, but from the nature of your questions I assume you have never actually asked them. Or, if you have asked them then you obviously never cared about the answers; only about the arguments.

    If I had asked these questions before, why would I ask them again? So, your point is? Scott

  2. Jesse said

    Jesse says, What is your motivation for gaining answers to these questions? There are also many things that don’t make sense in the Bible, but I don’t see you asking other Christians questions about those.

    I am not asking questions about anything in the bible because I have not raised any questions from the Bible…I have no problems with anything in the Bible, so why would I ask other Christians questions about it. Motivation for answers to these questions would help to understand many issues that have been raised from The Book of Mormon. I have been to the fairlds.com site and it only caused greater questions. I saw a video presentation concerning several of these questions that was suppose to help answer them and it only caused great concern as to the truthfulness of the mormon claims.

    Jesse says, The fact of the matter is Mormons don’t care about these questions – they don’t matter, even if we have an answer.

    I would not want to accept what someone else told me as testimony about The Book of Mormon…I would want to know by my own study and peace from God that something is true. It has to matter. The Bible being the true inspired Word of God matters to Christians. If it was not how could we beleive what it speaks of. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. We all must be able to believe in that which we proclaim to be true or what good is it. I think many mormons want to have answers to these questions…I have several friends that are mormons and they want to know as well. Scott

    Jesse says, What we care about is that Jesus Christ is our Savior, that Joseph Smith was a prophet and talked to God, and that God answers our prayers. The Book of Mormon itself states that “if there be any faults they are the faults of men”. Mormons stick to the basic doctrines of the Gospel, with Christ at its center. None of your questions above center on that focus. It is similar to any other Christian religion out there – the most important reason for belief being that in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the study of his righteous Prophets in the early days. You’re not going to get anywhere with these questions.

    I have already gotten somewhere with these questions. I have numerous dialogues from other mormon readers that have graciously attempted to answer these questions on another blog. Christ should be the center focus, true. Life is all about Jesus Christ and He should be worshipped as our Lord and Savior, this is true. However, you do not need to get defensive about a few questions, that you state don’t mean much or do they mean something? If you do not wish to answer that is fine. Others will make the attempt for you. I don’t hold anything against you for not answering these questions. I have hundreds of others that can be asked that will get to the heart of the matter, but I am looking for scencere honest dialogue from others like yourself. I don’t condemn you nor am I judging you. I simply ask 6 questions that came up and I did not have answers and right now you have not offered any for the readers either. Pressing on in Christ, Scott

    Now, in answer to your questions, have you checked the fairlds.org page for any of these? A quick search there or Google will provide many Mormon answers to your questions – perhaps you should share your findings!

    Already been there and done that. I will let you know what other LDS memebers have said once I compile all of their answers for you at a later date. Scott

  3. Scott said

    I want each of you to know that I simply want to discuss these quetions and others…I have no intentions of making an “ah, hah!” here. I will leave the questions and answers as they are. I mean if there is real answers to these questions and others that is great and acceptable. We are trying to understand the Mormon faith or LDS. You must admit when you start reading about God on a planet called Kolob, God being born of two other Gods and then Lucifer as Jesus’ brother and a council desiding between Lucifer and Jesus as to who would be the savior and they voted for Jesus and made Lucifer mad…these are all foreign to me and many others and obviously we will be curious. Then we get into the mason rituals in the Temple and dressed in white clothes with different hand signals that are suppose help the dead get into another level of heaven…then including allegiance to satan in those rituals. From what I know, Free Masons do not believe in any one religion as getting us to heaven….I have researched in history that Joseph Smith and his father were heavily involved in the occult and Free Masonry prior to the golden plates and The Book of Mormon, so is that where this part came from..one would assume, but I am asking? Where in scripture does the planet Kolob come from..this seems like something out of a fiction noval? Truthfully, I have no answers for these two questions and cannot understand where it would come from. Maybe one of you two can shed some light on this.

    Thanks,
    Scott

  4. Scott said

    Is there any other Christian brothers or sisters out there that wants to ask questions about LDS? It is remarkaly silent from the Christian corner! This is the way it usually is, but I thought some others out there might have an additional question, comment or further light to shed on the subject. Do not be shy to let your Light shine before men. On another blog site I have it is the same way…everyone has their hands in their pockets except for the gracious LDS members and me. Just trying to get some answers to questions that have been raised here.

    Pressing on in Christ,
    Scott

  5. noclaf said

    OK, stumbled across your blog here. There’s a couple of things you need to understand about the Mormon mind-set. First of all, any evidence that can be provided to prove that the BoM is not an actual history makes no difference to Mormons. They will tell you that “evidence” is from man, not from god. So archaeological, linguistic, historical and DNA (evidence) can be ignored. Besides, they prayed about the BoM, god gave them a confirming feeling, therefore the BoM is true…period. Next, the Bible (according to Mormons) has faults also. This is an argument from equivalency i.e. BoM isn’t accurate, the Bible isn’t accurate, they are equivalent, therefore the BoM is true, at least as much so as is the Bible. So that’s the deal. Evidence doesn’t mean much. It is discounted as a challenge to “faith”.

    I appreciate your comment. I also have found that any untruth about their founder and prophet does not matter much to them either. Their entire salvation is based on a warm fuzzy in their bellies. This is sad, but I wanted some dialogue with them some way to understand answers to questions that have been raised. Thanks again.

    Scott

  6. Dave said

    Almost everything you ask about is covered from a Mormon perspective at the FAIR wiki. http://en.fairmormon.org/Main_Page.

    It should be noted that this is is not a official LDS site, and that none of what is written there should be taken as official doctrine.

    I have looked there and really did not find answers necessarily, but did find speculations and messages addressing these questions. The questions are really designed to help us all think about what we believe in. As the apostle Paul clearly states in Galations 1:6-8 “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel. Which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned.” I encourage each of us not to fall for any other gospels other than the true gospel of Jesus Christ found within the pages of the Holy Bible. It is clear to me we needed no other gospels except the Holy Bible.

    Paul also tells us in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, “ALL scripture is God breathed and is profitable (useful) for teaching (truth), rebuking (convicting), correcting (putting on the right path) and training in righteousness (towards maturity in Christ), so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped (furnished) for every good work.”

    Pressing on in Christ my Lord,
    Scott

    Everything in () is for clarification and added by me.

  7. Jeff said

    Scott….don’t waste your life trying to prove your version of the truth to others’ versions of the truth. You have so much more to give than to dribble in pathetic squabble. Facts are so fragile…rewatch “12 angry men” to see that all is not as it seems. After all it is the predudices that are exposed. Your prejudices are exposed based on your view … spend your life building not tearing down, understanding not polarizing. Look at the goodness, the light, the fruits, and appreciate diversity. Joseph Smith translated within the limits of his experience and world. “Steel” likely was not steel at all as we know it today or as Joseph understood it. Look at the Bible. Its an ancient text from a multitude of writers & translators, a hundred times removed from the original writers themselves. It was written by men with their own failings, sometimes removed from the actual events by generations of time, then translated into other languages ….by men with bias and filtered through language barriers. Books compiled and sorted and given to the weaknesses of mankind. This and that book included, others excluded…all sifted by man. The Ur Church that Christ established was soon lost to trivial pursuits of every wind and doctrine and sect. The purity lost. An Apostasy. Does the Noah’s Ark story add up historically, scientifically, and likely? Is this any different than the difficulties that you find in the Book of Mormon? The Bible is a good book. A remarkable book given all the filtering. The basic message, however, is not historic or archaeological or scientific. It is spiritual ….deeply spiritual and personal. Its about the perfecting of the Saints and forgiving and loving and sharing and all about the atonement. Mormons do not send missionaries out to steal converts from your sect. Missionaries are sent out to bring mankind to Christ. Its that simple. So join us in spreading the good new. We appreciate that you don’t understand all that we believe. As we don’t understand why you fear us so much…by their fruits you shall know them.

    Jeff, I appreciate your comments. It is no waste to share the truth of Jesus Christ as my personal Savior and Lord. It is no waste to share to truths found in God’s holy word the Bible. Anywhere I feel that truth is distorted I must shed light on it as a calling of God. So, it really is not a waste when you see the number of people I have that finally realized who Jesus really is and what He did for them on the cross. When that light comes on in their eyes to the fact that they are sinners condemned unclean, but by the grace of our holy God He sent His one and only Son, Jesus to pay the price with His life and made it finished or final, once and for all on the cross of Calvary. This is a tremendous thing to watch and I have seen it happen over and over. Please, understand I have no fear of you, other Mormons or Latter Day Saints or I would not even raise a question. I have young LDS Missionaries in our house often and we have good discussions. I do understand more than you might think. The questions were really to create dialogue…I do not really care much about minor things that may not be essential. However, I do trust the Bible to be God-breathed as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us. I also believe that no other gospel was needed even if an angel from heaven came down and delivered as Paul warns us about in Galatians 1:6-9. My main goal is to even see if LDS memebers even read blogs or care much. But in the meantime I do have interest to know if you can answer questions tha are raised…in my Christian faith when questions are raised we will try to answer if it can be without grumbling. Now, for an athiest that might stumble across a blog and make a quick comment and leave I probably will not give it the time of day, but for most people I will give it a shot.

    Good to read your comments and hope you will come back and comment again if you want to.

    Pressing on in Christ my Lord,
    Scott

  8. Adam F said

    Scott,

    Your feigned sincerity in wanting to know the answers to the questions you ask is obvious. You’re simply trying to entrap.

    If you were sincere in your search for the truth, you would have not given up so easily when Dave told you where the answers were archived.

    For example, if all you did was search on “horse” at the wiki, you would have found this documentation of pre-columbian horses in the Americas (scroll down to Horse):

    http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Animals

    Most, if not all, of your questions have been asked *and answered* decades ago (they’re very old). It’s like you’re bringing up the argument that the earth is flat, and since no one is rushing to prove to you that it is not flat, Q.E.D., that proves the earth is flat!

    Some of your questions are staw-man arguments to begin with, too. For example, the first question:

    1. If the American Indians were suppose to all be descendants of Lehi as is told, why was there so much diversity in the language and yet there was no indication of Hebrew in any of the Indian languages?

    a) The Church of Jesus Christ has never claimed nor written that “American Indians were suppose to all be descendants of Lehi.” In the Book of Mormon itself, there were number of progenitors: Lehi (tribe of Manasseh), Ishmael (tribe of Ephriam), Mulek (tribe of Judah), Zoram (tribe of Manasseh), and the Father of Jared. The Jaredites came to the Americas well before Abraham was born, and they did not speak Hebrew.

    b) “why was there so much diversity in the language” – the Book of Mormon covers a period of over 2500 years of history, which ended 1600 years ago. It is very normal for language to change over a 1600-year period. Just look at how English has changed in the past 200 years, or how language in Europe (or anywhere else in the world) has changed since 600 B.C., which is when Lehi came to the Americas from Jerusalem.

    c) “yet there was no indication of Hebrew in any of the Indian languages” – sorry, but again, a very ignorant statement. When the Spanish conquistadors first discovered the “Indians,” they were actually amazed at how “Hebrew” the “Indians” were in language, customs, etc. Bartolome de Las Casas, an early Spanish explorer, went “so far as to say that the language of the Island of Santo Domingo was corrupt Hebrew.”

    The last quote was in a 370-page tome written in 1836 entitled, “The Ten Tribes of Israel Historically Identified with the Aborigines of the Western Hemisphere,” which is 370 pages of evidence found by various early explorers (Las Casas, Sahagun, Boturini, Garcia, Gumilla, Benaventa, and Martyr) that the inhabitants of the Americas in the 1400-1500’s were Hebrews.

    See also The Works of Hubert Howe Bancroft, Vol. 5, The Native Races: Primitive History, San Francisco, 1883.

    Having physical evidences like these will not convince you the Book of Mormon is real and a true historical record. You have to read the book with true sincerity desiring to know if it is really true. If you do that, I guarantee you will have experiences where the Lord will whisper to your soul that it is true.

    But like I said at the beginning.. I don’t think you sincerely want to know because I don’t think you would be ready for the implications.

  9. Adam F said

    Steel Bow

    See steel bow mentioned in 2 Sam. 22:35, Psalms 18:34, and Job 20:24, which pre-date the Book of Mormon period.

    So little is known about metals in the ancient Americas that one single discovery can push back the accepted dates by well over a thousand years! See http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/andeans981105.html

    I WILL CHECK THIS OUT. THANKS FOR THE INFO. SCOTT

    Silk

    There is evidence that the silkworm was known in the New World before the arrival of Columbus. See “The Prophet Said Silk” by Maurice W. Connell, The Improvement Era, Vol. 65, No. 5 (May 1962), pp. 324-345. (http://www.shields-research.org/Scriptures/BoM/SILK02.html) See also “Silkworm of the Aztecs” by Richard S. Peigler, Ph.D., Curator of Entomology, in Museum Quarterly, Vol. 2, No. 1 (Spring, 1993): pp. 10-11 (published by the Denver Museum of Natural History).

    I HAVE BEEN TOLD SO MANY DIFFERENT STORIES ON THE SILK QUESTION I AM NOT SURE WHICH TO BELIEVE AT THIS POINT. THANKS FOR THE INFO. SCOTT

    Cimeters

    William J. Hamblin and A. Brent Merrill, “Swords in the Book of Mormon,” in Stephen D. Ricks and William J. Hamblin (eds.), Warfare in the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City: Deseret and FARMS, 1990), 338-47; Matthew Roper, “Eyewitness Descriptions of Mesoamerican Swords,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 5/1 (Spring 1996):150-58; Roper, “Swords and ‘Cimeters’ in the Book of Mormon,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 8/1 (1999):34-43.

    AGAIN THIS IS ANOTHER EXPLANATION THAT DIFFERS FROM THE OTHER ONES I HAVE RECEIVED. THANKS. SCOTT

    Cliffs

    The word “cliff” does not appear in the Book of Mormon. In 1 Nephi 17:48, Nephi’s brothers attempt to throw him “into the depths of the sea.” This happens in the Old World (Arabian peninsula) before they built a ship and crossed the ocean to come to America. The geographic description of the place with cliffs has been well corroborated here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bountiful_(Book_of_Mormon)

    B.H. ROBERTS BROUGHT THIS UP WHEN ASKING WESLEY LLOYD WHERE THE MAYAN CLIFFS AND OTHER MOUNTAIN PEAKS WERE…HE THOUGHT THEY SOUNDED ALOT LIKE THE AREA AROUND NEW ENGLAND. THANKS FOR THE INFO. SCOTT

    Gold Plates

    B.H. Roberts never saw the gold plates. There were at least 13 people who saw the actual gold plates in person with their own eyes and others who felt them under a cloth. (See http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/golden_plates.html.) Not one of these persons ever denied their witness, even after some of them left the church. In fact, they confirmed their testimony until their death. These eye witness testimonies cannot be ignored.

    Uh, I think you need revisit this story. I have read and researched over and over that Joseph Smith is the only one that claims to have seen the Golden Plates with his own eyes. The other stated they only saw the Golden Plates “Spritiually”…Joseph reportedly stated that the Golden Plates we taken back up by an angel before anyone else could see them…this is strange in and of itself. Also, it is well known in research that Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon from the Golden Plates, but buried his face looking at a “peep stone” in his hat and then had other scribe what he saw…this is even stranger. Galatians 1:6-9 is a great part of scripture to remember. Scott

    I do appreciate your comments and will look into the references you have made. I have received I suppose at least 8 to 9 responses and none of them are the same other than referencing me to fairlds.com which did not satisfy the questions. It really is not that big of a deal either way, however, many other questions come up each time these are attempted to be answered. I will post other questions that I am truly curious about. I could research answers, but I like to hear directly from LDS members in their own words. Blessings to you and your family. Scott

  10. Scott said

    Adam,

    I understand your harsh comments. I am not trying to entrap anyone. It was the goal to get dialogue going with LDS members and other Christians…of course my other Christian brothers and sisters are silent as usual on this. I do not intend to entrap you because I do not have the answers either. Although, I must tell you that I have been impressed with a few answers and not that impressed with others, but it really does not matter. The goal of getting responses from the LDS members was met. You have spoken and done well. Some got very snotty about it and I deleted their comments just because they were not civilized in there comments. It is my blog, so I can let those in I want and kick the others out. If anyone is attempting to truly shed light on a subject by all means do so and you will get your comments posted unaltered by me. I might answer you on the same page, but I try to make it bold or all caps to distinguish who wrote what.

    Adam, your beginning comments here are somewhat harsh, but like I said understandable as some things you believe you have answers have come into question. Do not react that way. Just either make your case or don’t. You do not have to belittle yourself in any way by questions about certain aspects of your faith. I get bombarded by athiest sometimes and I do not get all bent out of shape. They are lost without a God, so what can we expect from a godless person.

    My main purpose for posting these questions again was for dialogue…boy did it work. I think we as Christians can learn alot from your faith as in the family unit aspect, the fact that you take care of each other within LDS better than anyone and do it as we Christians should be practicing it. I am not sure what the divorce rate is amoung LDS, but I would guess it is not as high as it is in the Christian faith as a whole. I do think we differ greatly on salvation and who Jesus Christ really is, but we can develop that as we talk later. Let us all get past these 6 questions. I have other curious questions on the planet Kolob and Free Masonry rituals that I certainly have no clue what that is all about in a church…so, be looking for those questions as I am really interested in knowing what that is all about.

    Pressing on in Christ my Lord,
    Scott

  11. Mark said

    You’ll never get what you seek because all it boils down to is opposing camps arguing “this is what God said.”

    Foolishness.

    WHAT?

  12. Mark said

    Foolishness in that there is no truth to be found. Ultimately you believe you believe in the correct version of God and LDS believes the same.

  13. Maz said

    Scott: Just to encourage you brother. I am involved in blogging on another site with a Mormon lady….she gets a little irritated sometimes just like those I see here. They cannot face the hard questions but I understand how hard it must be for them to have their faith questioned when they have so much faith in it.
    I doubt…actually I know, those questions you have will not be answered because, as I have found asking the very same questions, that they have no answer to give. They resort to accusations and other evasive tactics. I was told I did not deserve to have them!
    Keep going Scott…there are some Christians out here who are willing to get on the front line….few and far between I feel sometimes…but we must keep going.
    God bless you!

    I am glad to have you on the front line with me. I know there are others out there that would like to get up here with us, but are timid and shy. They need to come out of that shell and let the light of Christ shine from them. I asked the LDS members other questions in another post that are really just curious observations of mine. They may be a bit more personal to them and somewhat harder to answer for them….I have received no responses to those. The questions posted here were met with some polite attempts at answering, but not real answers…then other got down right vile and snotty about it. I was wondering and am still wondering where the “Christ-Likeness” is in them? It doesn’t exist.

    Anyway, I appreciate you stepping up and the encouragement is much needed as the attacks can get pretty intense sometimes. I do not fear though…God is with me! Carry on the fight, sister.

    Pressing on in Christ,
    Scott

  14. Maz said

    Scott: Just to let you know…I am your SISTER in Christ. Others have made the same error…not to worry.

    I am sorry about that…had no way of knowing just by the comments. I did go back and change that, so no one would be confused. I do appreciate you commenting here along side me. We are in this battle together. Blessing to you! Scott

  15. Adam F said

    <>

    Scott – There are two main groups of eye witnesses to the plates on which the Book of Mormon was engraven. Their eye witness testimonies are available in the first few pages of the Book of Mormon. I will include the testimonies below so you can see that it was more than just seeing the plates “spiritually.” It was a very spiritual experience for the three witnesses because the plates were shown to them by an angel and the voice of God bore witness to them that the book had been translated by the gift and power of God and commanded them to bare witness themselves. They also saw the “engravings which were on the plates.”

    The eight witnesses did not have as spiritual an experience as the three witnesses (no angel or voice of God), but they did see and feel the “leafs” (metal pages) of the plates and did “handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings.” They also “hefted” (lifted) the plates, all of which describes a very physical, real-life encounter with the plates.

    These are the testimonies:

    TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
    Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
    Oliver Cowdery
    David Whitmer
    Martin Harris

    THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
    Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
    Christian Whitmer
    Jacob Whitmer
    Peter Whitmer, Jun
    John Whitmer
    Hiram Page
    Joseph Smith, Sen
    Hyrum Smith
    Samuel H. Smith

    Source: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss
    http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/eghtwtns

  16. Adam F said

    Joseph Smith, the Three Witnesses, and the Eight Witnesses makes twelve witnesses. The thirteenth is a sister by the name of Mary Whitmer. She had a large family and was also letting Joseph Smith, his wife, and Oliver Cowder (scribe) stay at her home while the translation of the Book of Mormon was going on. She had been feeling partiularly burdened when, “One evening when she went to milk the cows, she said that a stranger with a knapsack spoke to her, explained what was going on in her house, comforted her, then produced a bundle of plates from his knapsack, turned the leaves for her, showed her the engravings, exhorted her to faith in bearing her burden a little longer, then suddenly vanished with the plates. She always called the stranger Brother Nephi.” [Nephi was one of the first prophets in the Book of Mormon who built a ship and sailed with his family from Jerusalem to the Americas around 600 B.C. He was aparently returning as an angelic messenger to give Mary strength.]

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Whitmer

    INTERESTING ADAM. I READ YESTERDAY AND FORGIVE ME FOR NOT HAVING THE REFERENCE, BUT I WILL LOOK FOR IT, THAT OLIVER COWDER LATER JOINED THE METHODIST FAITH AND IT WAS TOLD THAT HE SAID HE REGRETTED EVER GETTING INVOLVED WITH JOSEPH SMITH AND THE MORMON FAITH. I DO NOT KNOW IF THAT IS FACT…IT SEEMED TO HAVE COME FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE, BUT AGAIN I WILL HAVE TO LOOK THAT UP. I JUST WONDER WHY HE WOULD REGRET THIS IF HE WAS THERE AS A WITNESS TO ALL THIS AND WAS THE SCRIBE?

    SCOTT

  17. Maz said

    I would be interested to know the characters of these people, they are just names at the bottom of a statement, and a few seem to be closely related.
    Anyone can make up a statement if there is something to be gotten at the end. What do we know about these families?

    IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO KNOW. I HAVE YET TO GET A REAL IRON CLAD ANSWER TO ANYTHING THAT CAN BE RECONCILED IN THE BIBLE.

  18. Jeff said

    Scott says……”It is no waste to share the TRUTH of Jesus Christ”
    I ASK…Who made Scott the almighty holder of all TRUTH? The mighty judge of mankind, Gods one & only representative. God only speaks to you. A lesser HUMAN dare not also speak to God?

    FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS THIS ATTACK ON ME PERSONALLY? WHERE IS THE CHRIST-LIKENESS IN YOU?

    IT IS NOT A WASTE TO SHARE THE TRUTH OF JESUS CHRIST. MY AUTHORITY COMES FROM THE SCRIPTURES. I AM NO JUDGE OR PROPHET NOR HAVE I CLAIMED TO BE ONE…THAT IS YOUR OWN WORDS. I AM A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE LIVING GOD AS A BELIEVER IN JESUS CHRIST. IN GODS WORD IF WE ARE BELIEVERS WE ARE COMMISSIONED TO TELL THE TRUTH FOUND IN GODS WORD ALWAYS. AT THE END OF MATTHEW JESUS TELLS US WHAT TO DO. ALL AUTHORITY HAS BEEN GIVEN TO HIM AND THEN HE COMMISSIONS HIS BELIEVERS TO GO INTO ALL THE WORLD SPREADING THE GOSPEL. WHY WOULD I DO OTHERWISE?

    Scott says, “It is no waste to share the TRUTHS found in God’s holy word the Bible.”
    I ASK…your truth (your version) of the Bible. Out of all Christianity, Scott decides what the Bible truth really mean!

    WHY WOULD I NOT BELIEVE IN WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. HOW CAN ANYONE WORSHIP AND FIGHT FOR SOMEHTING THEY HAVE NO BELIEF IN? WHAT I FIND IN THE SCRIPTURES IS TRUTH AS REVEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES A MIGHTY WORK WITH GODS WORD. YOU ARE GETTING ALL BENT OUT OF SHAPE ATTACKING ME…THAT IS FINE. AS JESUS STATES IN HIS WORD THAT WHEN WE ARE SHARING THE GOSPEL AND SOMEONE ATTACKS US, THEY ARE ATTACKING HIM AS WELL. I WELCOME YOU, JEFF, ATTACK AWAY. I WILL NOT BACK AWAY FROM THE TRUTH FOUND IN GODS WORD…NEVER!!!!

    Scott says, “Anywhere I FEEL that truth is distorted I must shed light on it as a calling of God.
    I ASK…so you alone speak for God. Well meet the Prophet Scott…who alone decides what is distorted by his FEELINGS! Just when did God call you? Was this another of your feelings that are superior to ALL OTHERS.

    I MEASURE ANYTHING YOU OR SOMEONE SAYS AGAINST WHAT THE SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE SAY. I TRUST EACH AND EVERY PROPHET IN GODS WORD…THE HOLY BIBLE. WHEN YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE STATES SOMETHING AS FACT AND THEN GIVES ME A SCRIPTURE REFERENCE I WILL GO TO THAT SCRIPTURE REFERENCE AND CHECK OUT THE CLAIM. THERE IS ALSO A WAY THAT SCRIPTURE TELLS US TO MEASURE A PROPHETS TRUTHFULNESS OR NOT. IN DEUT 13…READ IT IN ITS FULL CONTEXT. ALSO, 2 TIM 3:16-17 TELLS US WHAT GODS HOLY WORD IS FOR…”ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED AND IS USEFUL FOR TEACHING, REBUKING, CORRECTING, AND TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, SO THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK.” AS SOMEONE THAT IS A BELIEVER IN JESUS CHRIST AS SAVIOR, I AM A MAN OF GOD AND THE SCRIPTURE IS WHAT I USE FOR SUCH PURPOSES…I USE THE SAME MEASURE IN MY OWN LIFE. THE WORD OF GOD TEACHES, REBUKES, CORRECTS, AND TRAINS ME PERSONALLY AS WELL. SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE SCRIPTURES SHOULD BE BROUGHT OUT INTO THE LIGHT OF GODS WORD. I AM NOT SUPERIOR TO ANYONE, BUT I WILL NOT BACK AWAY FROM BRINGING OUT WHAT GODS WORD SAYS IN ITS PROPER CONTEXT. IF IT CONVICTS YOU AND MAKES YOU FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN TRUTH IS BROUGHT BEFORE YOU, THEN YOU MIGHT WANT TO START DIGGING INTO GODS WORD DEEPER YOURSELF. BY THE TONE OF YOUR COMMENTS HERE I WOULD SAY THE TRUTH IS MAKING YOU VERY UNCOMFORTABLE. THAT IS WHAT IT IS DESIGNED TO DO. IT IS NOT WHAT I SAY, BUT GODS WORD SAYS. THE ATTACK IS AT ME, BUT IT IS GODS WORD YOU ARE ANGRY ABOUT.

    Scott says, ” I have that FINALLY REALIZED who Jesus REALLY IS and what He did for them on the cross.
    I ASK…note the words that Scott uses,,,FINAL/REAL/REALLY….your perceived reality Scott…your .realization but is it God’s?

    IT IS GODS REALITY. I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT. IT IS NOT A PERCEPTION. ONCE YOU BECOME A TRUE BELIEVER IN CHRIST YOU HAVE IMMEDIATELY THE HOLY SPIRIT TO HELP YOU DESCERN TRUTH. THIS IS AN AMAZING THING GOD GIVES TO US. WHEN YOU FIND THE REAL SAVIOR OF THE BIBLE IT WILL SET YOU FREE TO SHARE THE TRUTH WITH ANYONE BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT…NOT MANS POWER. IT WILL FILL YOUR HEART WITH GRACE TOWARDS OTHERS….GRACE IS THE ONLY WAY I AM ABLE RESPOND TO YOU TODAY…IN MY HUMANLY FLESH IT WOULD NOT BE NICE AT ALL. THE JESUS CHRIST THAT DIED FOR ME ON THAT CROSS IS SO REAL AND WONDERFUL TO ME IT IS HARD TO PUT INTO WORDS. BUT IT IS A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP I SHARE WITH HIM 24 HOURS A DAY 7 DAY A WEEK. I SPEAK WITH HIM OFTEN THROUGHOUT MY DAY AND ALWAYS TRY TO CONFIDE IN HIM ON ALL MATTERS…NOW I AM NOT PERFECT BY ANY MEANS, BUT THIS IS THE DAILY GOAL. WHEN SOMEONE FINDS THIS SAME JESUS THEY WILL UNDERSTAND IT. MANY HAVE FOUND THIS SAME JESUS AND WHAT A GLORIOUS CHANGE THIS IS FOR ANY OF US. YOU CAN FIND HIM TOO, BUT HE WILL NOT BE FOUND WITH AN ATTITUDE AS YOU HAVE IN THESE COMMENTS. I SHARE FROM MY HEART WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY BASED ON WHAT THE ORIGINAL TEXT MEANT, NOT MY OPINION OR SOME NEW PROPHECY AND ALL YOU HAVE DONE IS TRIED TO FOCUS ON ME AND ATTACK ME. GET THE FOCUS OFF OF ME AND BACK ON WHAT IS REALLY THE UNDERLYING ISSUE…GODS HOLY WORD.

    I concur as to the joy and peace that comes from the atoning sacrifice when we apply it in our lives. The Bible is a good book but its not the only book and its not the final word of God or Christ. Do not define the limits of God based on your version of the truth. God does fine on his own. When your pull out a single scripture and use it to represent the Bible remember there was no Bible yet as the scriptures were written. Each book in the scriptures is its own entity directed to the saints not to a book that was compiled later. Keep things in their proper context.
    peace always Jeff

    I HAVE TAKEN NOTHING OUT OF CONTEXT. THIS IS INTERSTING YOU BRING THAT UP. AS I RESPONDED TO AN LDS MEMEBER THE OTHER DAY WHO HAD TAKEN SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT ALL OVER THE PLACE, WHICH UNFORTUNATELY I FIND WITH MANY LDS MEMBERS. FOR INSTANTS: THE QUESTION OF THE COUNCIL CHOOSING JESUS OVER LUCIFER TO BE THE REDEEMER. THE LDS MEMBER SENT ME TO ISAIAH 6:8. WELL, WHEN YOU PLACE THAT SCRIPTURE INTO ITS PROPER CONTEXT IT MEANS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT JESUS AS THE REDEEMER AND LUCIFER IN COUNCIL. IT IS SPEAKING ABOUT ISAIAHS COMMISSIONING TO GO A PREACH TO JUDAH. ISAIAH IS THE ONE THAT SAID, “HERE AM I, SEND ME”…NOT JESUS AND LUCIFER…YOU HAVE READ IT AND STUDY IT IN FULL CONTEXT NOT VERSE BY VERSE. IF YOU TAKE EACH VERSE BY ITSELF YOU WILL REMAIN CONFUSED… NOW, WHEN YOU TAKE JUST VERSE 8 BY ITSELF, YOU COULD MAKE IT MEAN WHATEVER YOU WANT, BUT GODS WORD IS NOT MEANT TO BE READ THAT WAY NOR DOES IT MEAN WHAT WAS REFERENCED BY THIS LDS MEMBER. JEFF, TRUTH HURTS WHEN WE COME FACE TO FACE WITH IT…I KNOW THAT. THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY BOOK WITH AUTHORITY BEHIND IT. IT IS NOT THE BOOK ITSELF OR THE PAGES….JESUS IS THE WORD AND WITH THAT COMES THE POWER OF CHRIST BEHIND THOSE WORDS. DOWN THROUGH THE AGES GREAT AND MIGHTY MEN OF GOD HAVE PREACHED AND TAUGHT FROM THESE SCRIPTURES. NONE OF THOSE HAD ANY OTHER BOOK OTHER THAN THE BIBLE. GOD HAS DONE A MIGHTY WORK IN EVERY AGE TO HIS GREAT GLORY. MY MAIN REASON FOR NOT TRUSTING THE BOOK OF MORMON IS THE FACTS THAT I HAVE FOUND ABOUT JOSEPH SMITH…I SIMPLY DO NOT TRUST HIM AS A TRUE PROPHET. HE HAS MANY PROPHECIES THAT NEVER CAME ABOUT. ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE IF HE WAS 99% RIGHT AND 1% MAKES HIM A FALSE PROPHET. I KNOW YOU CAN COME UP WITH ANY NUMBER OF REASONS TO DEFEND JOSEPH SMITH AND THAT IS FINE. BUT WHAT MY LIFE BOILS DOWN TO IS THAT I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS THE LORD OF MY LIFE WHO SETS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF MY HEAVENLY FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT PROVIDES ME AND ANYONE ELSE WHO CLAIMS CHRIST AS SAVIOR THE POWER TO PROCLAIM HIS WORD. I AM NO PROPHET NOR HAVE I CLAIMED TO BE ONE. EACH US AS CHRISTIANS HAVE EQUAL ACCESS TO THE THRONE OF GOD LIKE A PREACHER, PRIEST, OR ANYOEN ELSE WOULD. WE DO NOT TAKE THE WORDS OUT PREACHERS AND TEACHERS TELLS US AS THE GOSPEL…IT IS ALWAYS MEASURED UP WITH THE SCRIPTURES…IF IT DOES NOT MEASURE UP THEN IT MUST BE BROUGHT INTO QUESTION…OUR PASTORS TELL US CONSTANTLY TO PUT WHAT THEY TELL US UP AGAINST GODS WORD…I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO THE SAME WITH YOUR LEADERS.

    THE BIBLE IS FAR MORE THAN A GOOD BOOK. IF YOU WILL SPEND MORE TIME THERE THAN IN THE BOOK YOU MIGHT FIND WHAT I HAVE SAID HERE TO BE TRUTH. THE BIBLE IS COMPLETE..IT IS THE TRUTH…IT WAS NOT FABRICATED BY SOMEONE LOOKING AT A ROCK IN HIS HAT. THIS BIBLE YOU CALL A GOOD BOOK IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD…WITH EVERY MEAING STILL IN TACT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES WE STILL HAVE IN EXISTANACE….OVER 14,000. EACH AND EVERY WORD COPIED OVER 2000 YEARS TO MAINTAIN ITS AUTHENTICITY. THE TRUE MEANING OF GODS INPIRED WORD HAS NEVER WAIVERED IN ALL THESE YEARS. YET, THE BOM HAS HAD REVISION AFTER REVISION AFTER REVISION FROM THE VERY BEGINNING AS TO ITS MEANINGS AND THAT HAS ONLY BEEN ABOUT 170 YEARS. THIS IS FACTS I FOUND THROUGH THE LDS…NOT MY OPINION.

    READ THE WORD OF GOD THAT HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST,
    SCOTT

  19. Jeff said

    Scott says>>”FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS THIS ATTACK ON ME PERSONALLY? WHERE IS THE CHRIST-LIKENESS IN YOU?”
    I SAY..this was no attack it was just to challenge your authority to act in God’s name….and your arrogance to your exclusive interpretation of the scriptures. You were not there, …the scriptures state as to the priesthood authority ”
    “And no man taketh the honor unto himself, but when he is called of God, even as was Aaron”

    Scott failed to answer any of the following points
    1- the Bible is a collection of writings many times over translated and filter by man
    2- the Bible only faintly reflects the fullness of the Gospel and the Church with authority that he founded. The Bible is a book not the Church or body of Christ. It is rather sad that you think the Bible to be Church and the Bible not to have been changed through man and time and bias and translation etc. Read your history. Scott says “ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES” still exist. History doesn’t support that statement. Where is this mystery text hand written by Matthew Paul, and John the Revelator and all the others? Not too logical Scott!
    3- Scott has a fragment of the truth and claims this to be the Church of Christ. There is so much more. God speaks today through living prophets…may I invite you to feel of the goodness and fullness and spirit as our prophets speak to the world this coming Sabbath. He speaks to man today if only we have the courage to listen.
    4- If your life is to be fully Christ centered, then learn of his restored Church. This is not the Church of Joseph Smith. We do not worship him. We believe that Christ worked through him along with Peter James John, john the Baptist, Elias, Elijah and others who in our time have restored those keys of authority for the restoration of the fullness of the Gospel…in our time. What a marvelous work and a wonder.
    peace Jeff

    JEFF, ALL YOU WANT TO DO IS ARGUE OVER ME. I AM NOT YOUR TARGET. I ANSWERED EVERYTHING I THOUGHT NEEDED TO BE. I AM NOT GOD NOR AM I JESUS CHRIST. I AM A HUMBLE BELIEVER IN JESUS CHRIST AS MY LORD AND SAVIOR. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, THEN IT IS CERTAINLY TRAGIC, BUT THAT IS BETWEEN YOU AND GOD. ALL THIS YOU ARE RAMBLING ABOUT ABOVE REALLY DOES NOT MAKE MUCH SENSE AND I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FOLLOW, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TAKEN THINGS WAY OUT OF CONTEXT TO WHAT I WAS SAYING AND MADE NUMEROUS ASSUMPTIONS:-) THERE IS NO FRAGMENTS OF TRUTH…I ENCOURAGE YOU TO SPEND A WEEK IN THE HOLY BIBLE RATHER THAN ANY OTHER BOOK. YOU ARE LDS AND I AM CHRISTIAN…WE DO NOT SERVE THE SAME GOD..I CAN SEE THAT! THE JESUS I SERVE AND HONOR IS FULL OF HUMILITY AND MERCY AND GRACE….THE JESUS YOU LIKELY SERVE IS NOTHING LIKE THAT AND IS FALSE. I SERVE THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB. THE GOD OF THE HOLY BIBLE THAT CREATED THIS EARTH AND ALL THAT IS ON IT, HE IS GOD THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IN ONE…THE HOLY TRINITY! THE GOD THAT REIGNS SUPREME ABOVE THIS EARTH AND CONTROLS ALL THINGS. HE IS MOST POWERFUL AND IS THE MOST HIGH. HE IS SELF-EXISTANT WITHOUT END. I BELIEVE JESUS DIED ON A CROSS AT WHAT WE NOW CALL CALVARY FOR MY SINS AND THE SINS OF ALL INCLUDING MINE AND YOURS AND WITHIN 3 DAYS HE WAS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE. HE ASCENDED TO HEAVEN TO TAKE HIS SEAT ON HIS THRONE AT THE RIGHT HAND OF OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. TODAY WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT TO HELP US DISCERN THE TRUTH FROM HIS WORD, TO DISCERN RIGHT FROM WRONG, TO DISCERN WHEN SOMEONE IS PULLING OUR LEG:-) THE HOLY BIBLE IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD…I MUST BELIEVE THAT…AS 2 TIMOTHY STATES THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS “GOD BREATHED”. NO MISTRANSLATION IN THAT…NOR IS THERE ANYWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES OF THE HOLY BIBLE THAT I HAVE FOUND.

    SO, IF YOU WANT TO GET DOWN TO TRUTH THEN SHARE SOME FROM YOUR BOOK, STOP ATTACKING ME…I AM NOT THE OBJECT. YOU WOULD LIKE FOR ME TO BE, BUT I AM NOT. IT IS EASIER TO ATTACK ME AND TRY TO COME UP WITH THINGS YOU THINK I AM SAYING THAN IT IS FOR YOU TO TAKE VERBAGE FROM THE BOM AND STAND IT AGAINST THE HOLY BIBLE…IF YOU THINK THE BIBLE IS ONLY A GOOD BOOK BUT THE BOM IS PURE, THEN WHY DOESN’T THE LDS THROW THE BIBLE AWAY…YOU DON’T NEED IT IF IT IS NOT PURE…WHY KEEP IT AROUND. I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT KEEP A BOOK AROUND TO READ FROM AND ACCEPT AS MY GUIDE IF I THOUGHT IT HAD FALICIES IN IT. YOU CANNOT DO IT IS WHY YOU DO NOT DO IT…SO YOU ATTACK ME…IF YOUR ATTACKS CONTINUE ON ME I WILL SIMPLY START DELETING YOUR COMMENTS..IT IS THAT SIMPLE. I NOR THE OTHER READERS HAVE TIME FOR YOUR BABBLE. I DID NOT WRITE THE BIBLE AND I AM NOT A SCHOLAR…I AM SIMPLE LAYMAN THAT BELIEVES THE BIBLE TO BE ABSOLUTELY TRUE. YOUR RANTINGS WILL NOT SWAY ME OR MOST OF MY READERS. SO, GET A LIFE MAN!

    PRESSING ON IN CHRIST JESUS MY LORD,
    SCOTT

  20. Adam F said

    Scott,

    Regarding the three witnesseses, there were false accounts during their lifetime of them denying their witness propagated by people who did not want to believe it was true.

    In answer to false accounts of him denying his testimony of the Book of Mormon, a year before he died, David Whitmer published and distributed a pamphlet entitled:

    An Address to All Believers in Christ (Richmond, Mo.: David Whitmer, 1887).

    Full text here:

    http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/address1.htm

    In it he reaffirms in no uncertain terms his own testimony of the Book of Mormon (even though he disagreed with some doctrines of the church). He also mentions Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer (the other two witnesses).

    Here is an excerpt:

    It is recorded in the American Cyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica, that I, David Whitmer, have denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the divinity of the Book of Mormon; and that the other two witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, denied their testimony to that Book. I will say once more to all mankind, that I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof. I also testify to the world, that neither Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris ever at any time denied their testimony. They both died reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the death bed of Oliver Cowdery, and his last words were,”Brother David, be true to your testimony to the Book of Mormon.” He died here in Richmond, Mo., on March 3d, 1850. Many witnesses yet live in Richmond, who will testify to the truth of these facts, as well as to the good character of Oliver Cowdery. The very powers of darkness have combined against the Book of Mormon, to prove that it is not the word of God, and this should go to prove to men of spiritual understanding, that the Book is true. To show the reader what I have had to contend with, I give you below a copy of a leaflet which I had printed and distributed in March, 1881.

    “A PROCLAMATION”

    “Unto all Nations, Kindred Tongues and People, unto whom these presents shall come:

    “It having been represented by one John Murphy, of Polo, Caldwell County, Mo., that I, in a conversation with him last summer, denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the BOOK OF MORMON.

    “To the end, therefore, that he may understand me now, if he did not then; and that the world may know the truth, I wish now, standing as it were, in the very sunset of life, and in the fear of God, once for all to make this public statement:

    “That I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that Book, as one of

    page 8
    [p. 9]

    the three witnesses. Those who know me best, well know that I have always adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do again affirm the truth of all of my statements, as then made and published.

    NOT SURE WHAT ALL THIS IS ABOUT, BUT ALL I AM LOOKING FOR IN ALL OF THIS IS WHERE IN THE HOLY BIBLE YOU CAN RECONCILE ANY OF THE BOOK OF MORMON WITH IT? I HAVE YET TO FIND ANY RECONCILIATION. I SEE WHERE MANY SCRIPTURES FROM THE BIBLE HAVE BEEN COPIED INTO THE BOM, BUT THAT IS WHAT WE FIGURED ALL ALONG TOOK PLACE TO INTERMINGLE WITH J SMITH’S OWN IMAGINATION. ANYWAY, THANKS FOR COMMENTING.

    SB

  21. Jeff said

    JEFF, I LEFT THE TRUTH IN YOUR COMMENTS AND DELETED THE REST. THE TRUTH IS WHAT IT IS WHEN IT COMES FROM GOD’S WORD…I DID NOT WRITE THE SCRIPTURES, BUT I CERTAINLY BELIEVE IT 100%. SIMPLICITY IS A GREAT WAY TO PUT IT…ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT AS SIMPLISTIC WHEN YOU DIG IN TO THE HOLY BIBLE, BUT SALVATION IS RATHER SIMPLE FOR HIS COSEN PEOPLE…WHEN CALLS THEM THEY ANSWER AND COME. WHEN I SPEAK OF SCRIPTURE I AM NOT REFERRING TO ANY RELIGION, DENOMINATION, CULT, SECT, OR CREED…I AM SPEAKING FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF THE HOLY BIBLE THEMSELVES AS THE AUTHORITY BY WHICH I SPEAK AND TEACH. I HAVE STUDIED NOT ONLY FROM THE GREEK AND HEBREW TEXT, BUT ALSO FROM THE 1599 GENEVA BIBLE WHICH WAS WRITTEN BEFORE ANY OF THE KING JAMES VERSIONS. THE GENEVA BIBLE WAS THE FIRST BIBLE IN CHAPTER FORM FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION IN ENGLISH. NOW, I DO NOT TELL YOU THIS TO UPSET YOU, BUT SO THAT YOU UNDERSTAND I AM COMING FROM THE CHRISTIAN SIDE OF THIS NOT THE MORMON SIDE…I DO NOT RECOGNIZE THE BOOK OF MORMON TO BE TRUTH…I BELIEVE IT TO BE THE IMAGINATION OF JOSEPH SMITH WITH NO REVELATION FROM GOD. I HAVE READ MUCH OF THE BOM AND SOME LARGE PORTIONS ARE RE-WRITTEN VERBATEM FROM IASAIH…AND WHAT I HAVE RESEARCHED ABOUT JOSEPH SMITH AND HIS SURROUNDINGS AT THE TIME OF HIS WRITING AND HIS CHILDHOOD I HAVE NO REASON TO PUT ANY FAITH IN THAT WHICH HE SAID OR WROTE. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A MORONI OR A PROMISE FROM THIS CHARACTER. ALL AUTHORITY FOR TEACHING AND LIVING COME FROM THE BIBLE. MY FAITH AND TRUST IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TO HAVE DIED ON THE CROSS, ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND IS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN TODAY AND TO BE THE GLORY AND HONOR OF GOD THE FATHER. IF SCRIPTURE POINTED OR DIRECTED PEOPLE TO THIS NEW BOM, THEN WE WOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT, YET IT DOES NOT ANYWHERE WITHIN ITS PAGES POINT TO ANY OF THE CHARACTERS IN THE BOM. IF I COULD FIND LEGITIMENT ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCES AND RECORDS THAT SUPPORT MUCH OF THE BOM, THAT MIGHT GIVE IT SOME CREDENCE. I HAVE BEEN TO FAIRLDS AND OTHER SITES AND NOTHING ON THOSE SITES ARE CONVINCING, CONCLUSIVE, AND ACTUALLY RAISE FURTHER QUESTIONS.

    YES, I AM VERY CONTENT WITH MY SALVATION…I KNOW WHERE MY ETERNITY WILL BE AND THAT IS WITH MY SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST IN HEAVEN FOR ALL ETERNITY…IN THAT I DO NOT DOUBT. AM I CONTENT WITH THE DEPTH OF MY SPIRITUAL LIFE OR RELATINSHIP WITH HIM, NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT…I WANT TO KNOW HIM AND EXPERIENCE HIM ON A GREATER LEVEL THAN EVER BEFORE AS PREPARATION FOR MY ETERNITY WITH HIM…EACH DAY I RECEIVE WISDOM FROM THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIS WORD. HE DIRECTS MY PATH AND MY DECISIONS…MY GOD IS SOVEREIGN OVER ALL OF MY AFFAIRS. THAT IS WHY I STUDY GOD’S HOLY WORD IN THE BIBLE DAILY. I STUDY IT WITH THE GREEK OR HEBREW MEANINGS TO WORDS THAT MIGHT BE BROAD LIKE “WORLD” AND “LOVE”. THE WORD “WORLD” IN THE GREEK AND HEBREW HAS ABOUT 8 DIFFERENT MEANINGS THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE…WITHIN THAT IT IS USED 287 DIFFERENT WAYS. IF YOU TAKE EVERYTHING WITHIN THE SCRIPTURES ABSOLUTELY LITERAL, WHICH I THINK JOSEPH SMITH PROBABLY DID, YOU WILL NOT HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF MUCH OF GOD’S WORD. ALOT OF CONFUSION WITHIN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH TODAY IS BECAUSE OF SUCH MISTRANSLATING. THE BIBLE IS STILL PRESERVED UNTAINTED FROM ITS ORIGINAL TEXT SOME 2000 YEARS AGO FOR THE NEW TESTAMENT AND LONGER THAN THAT FOR OLD TESTAMENT. THE BIBLE HAS NOT HAD THE CHANGES AND SO CALLED “UPDATES” THAT THE BOM HAS HAD. SOMETHING INSPIRED BY A PERFECT SOVEREIGN GOD DOES NOT NEED TO BE UPDATED…HE DOES NOT MAKE A MISTAKE. WE CAN STILL APPLY EVEN SOME OF THE SEEMINGLY OUTDATED DISCUSSIONS IN THE BIBLE TO TODAYS LIVING.

    I LOVE MY LORD WITH ALL MY HEART AND HE KNOWS THIS…THERE IS NO DOUBT ON THAT WITHIN A DROP OF MY BLOOD. TO TEACH AND PREACH WHAT I BELIEVE I CANNOT SPEAK ANYTHING BUT THE UNTAINTED TRUTH OF GOD’S WORD. UNDERSTAND THAT I COME AS A MINISTER OF GOD’S HOLY WORD FOUND IN THE BIBLE AND NONE OTHER. IF I DID NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE TO BE TRUE, THEN I WOULD BE BEARING FALSE WITNESS TO OTHERS…THIS I WILL NOT DO. THE BLESSINGS GOD HAS BESTOWED UPON ME AND MY FAMILY AS A RESULT OF SPEAKING HIS TRUTH IS OVERWHELMING MUCH OF THE TIME. EVEN IF BLESSINGS DID NOT COME, MY GOD WANTS ME TO DELIGHT IN HIM NO MATTER WHAT. DO YOU HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST? THIS IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION FOR ANYONE WANTING TO ATTAIN SALVATION.

    ALL I CAN TELL YOU, JEFF, IS MAKE SURE YOU DELIGHT IN THE LORD. “Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.” Psalm 37:4 IT IS NOT A CHURCH ON EARTH WITH WHATEVER NAME IT HAS ON IT….ANYONE CAN PUT A NAME ON A CHURCH. THE “CHURCH” THE SCRIPTURES ARE SPEAKING OF IS GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE, HIS ELECT, THE FLOCK, THE ONES THAT WILL ACCEPT AND BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR PERSONAL SAVIOR AND LORD…NOT A DENOMINATION, BUILDING, RELIGION, OR PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE IN ONE AREA OF THE WORLD…GOD HAS SAID THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE SAVED THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE WORLD, BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES ALIKE WITHOUT DESTINCTION…NOT THAT ALL PEOPLE WOULD BE SAVED, BUT SOME WILL BE SAVED. JESUS TOLD US THAT THE INVITATION GOES OUT TO MANY, BUT ONLY A FEW ARE CHOSEN. PUT YOUR DELIGHT IN GOD IN ALL THINGS…HONOR AND GLORIFY HIM IN ALL THAT YOU SAY AND DO.

    BLESSINGS IN CHRIST JESUS MY LORD,
    SCOTT

  22. Adam F said

    Scott,

    The Bible and Book of Mormon are both compilations of the writings of Semitic prophets. The Book of Mormon is a compilation of records of Semitic prophets who left the Middle East and arrived in the West. Since the prophets in the Bible and the Book of Mormon conversed with the same God (who was speaking to his children in different parts of the world), the teachings compliment each other and testify of the same general things – principally that Jesus is the Christ who came to earth to offer to us all salvation from the effects of death and sin through his resurrection and atonement. As part of that there are elements of the Gospel that if we follow them will help us live more healthy, fulfilling, and joyful lives.

    In fact the Biblical prophet Ezekiel prophesied of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. The Bible is the record of the Jews (stick of Judah), and the Book of Mormon is the record of Joseph/Ephriam (the main prophets of the Book of Mormon were descended from Joseph/Ephraim):

    Ezekiel 37:15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
    16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
    17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become aone in thine hand.
    18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us awhat thou meanest by these?
    19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

    The Bible and Book of Mormon are so related that the majority of Book of Mormon verses can be cross referenced to the Bible. In fact, the scripture above was fulfilled when the Bible and Book of Mormon were cross referenced.

    • Scott said

      I have read a good portion of the book of mormom. I dont see it as divinely inspired or that it is needed in anyway shape or form. The Holy Bible in a number of versions have all the knowledge and wisdom God intended we need…no need to copy large portions of the Bible and put it into the book of mormon which I would call pledgerism not divine. I often read from my 1599 Geneva Bible which is a wonderful source. Again I appreciate your opinions, but completely disagree.

      For the record, your reference to Ezekial bringing the two books together is completely unfounded…the two sticks are not The Bible and the book of mormon. That is in no way what the sticks are. You need to read it and reference it in the original Hebrew language. This in actual context is the reuniting of Israel and Judah/the northern kingdom and the sourthern kingdom…this vision was symbolic of that event which took place in the future. Again, has nothing to do with that which mormon doctrine teaches about this passage. I get this all the time and it just doesnt hold up once you look at the real context of the passage, searching the true Hebrew text meanings. The folks during this time were in dispair as they were scattered and separated from family and eager to reunite the northern kingdom and the souther kingdom. This is further referenced further down in 21-22. God will bring them together to make them one nation again under one king. The sticks were simply a piece of wood to write upon one Israel and the other Judah and joining those together as the symbolic prophecy that He would reunite them. Israel, God’s people, at this time were scattered, but He intended to bring them back together again under one reign. As far as dry bones, only God could make dry bones in a desert come to life again…He only can regenerate the hearts of dead people. This is a great story and truth. God will one day join all His people scattered across the world to reunite under one king, Jesus Christ.

      I could do further commentary on this and thoroughly enjoy good Bible exposition. appreciate your comments.

  23. Adam F said

    For the record Scott, every doubt you have brought up has been answered with certainty about the authenticity and truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    I know the Book of Mormon is authentic and the Church of Jesus Christ is true not because of little details like the ones brought up on this blog, but rather because I have put the principles taught in the Book of Mormon and the Bible into practice in my life – and they work! Despite all the challenges I face every day in life, I have answers, I receive help from above, I know who I am, I know why I am on earth, I understand death, I understand life, I have an amazing family, I have true peace, and I really am happy.

    • Scott said

      Thanks Adam. I disagree on the book of mormon mostly by what I know as facts about its author Joseph Smith and what Scriptures tells us concerning such other books, but I am not going to discuss that here. You are entitled to your beliefs. Thanks for sharing.

  24. Scott said

    One important message for anyone reading this section:

    Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. Unless one places their loyal trust in Jesus Christ that He in fact did die for our sins, was buried and did come back to life eternal three days later…unless one believes Jesus was and is who He said He was and is, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus told about the narrow path leading to the small gate. The small gate is Him and the narrow path leading to Him is the only way to heaven. Reference in Matthew.

    The full and complete gospel is this:

    -Starting with Adam, we have been a depraved people separated from God in need of salvation otherwise we all have been doomed from that time until today as a ruthlessly sinful people. As Scriptures tell us, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Furthermore, it is appointed that each person die once. After this is the judgement of God.

    -God made a way though for our sins to be atoned for and forgiven through His Son Jesus Christ by voluntarily going to the cross for us and dying. This was determined by the grace of God. Grace is simply this…unmeritted favor of God.

    -However, the good news does not end there. Jesus did not stay dead. God brought Him back to perfect life in three days. He conquered death for us by rising from the grave. We celebrate this each year called Easter.

    -The best news is that Jesus Christ sets at the right hand of the Father reigning as our Lord and King. He is there as the filter by which God the Father sees us. He cannot look upon sin, but Jesus made it possible for God to look at each of those He elected to be saved.

    What does this mean for you? If you place your undivided loyal trust in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior today, your eternity with God starts at that moment. We are immediately justified by Christ actions on the cross. The rest of our earthly life is our sanctification. But God will make sure His people endure to the end.

    Realize this, not one of us will ever be good enough to enter the kingdom of heaven apart from Jesus Christ as our mediator between the Father and us. So, if you want help with this you can stop right where you are and place your trust in Christ today.

    You must first admit before God you have been a sinner, that you cannot on your own merits gain salvation. Tell God with His intervention in your life you will forever change the sinful direction you are going now called repenting of our sins. Then tell Jesus you are trusting in Him today to save you and your are making Him the Lord of your life forever more. Thank Him for the salvation you just received. This must be done from a heart that is serious. It is not mouthing a prayer, it is not walking an isle to the front of a church, and it is not living a good life. Salvation is placing your true authentic trust in Jesus Christ to be your Lord and Savior. From this authentic life, you will unltimately desire to be holy and bring God glory with your life. Yes, we will make mistakes along the way, but our underlying desire is to please and obey God.

    I would encourage you if you have trusted in Christ, to seek out a good Bible teaching and preaching church, read your Bible daily, and pray often.

    Amen and congratulations to those who have given their life to God.

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